If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
"Kyle Boatright" wrote:
The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude during a pullout and pancaked to the ground... Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes *that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the sight lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway. It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck, or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw" is intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push the envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the non-flying public? I also think that aviation is ill-served by such risk-taking. Every accident offers another opportunity for a grandstanding politician to call for new restrictions on our privileges. -Mark |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
In article ,
"Mark G." wrote: It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck, or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw" is intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push the envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the non-flying public? The ACES program is a failure when it comes to experienced performers. While it has probably saved many lives of those new to airshow performing, the more experience performers seem to have forgotten the lessons they have been teaching while actings as instructors. When the program was implemented in the 1980's as a partnership between the FAA and the airshow industry (ie - ICAS), it was originally a very rigid cirriculum which dealt with aircraft performance under a wide range of conditions. This was heavily diluted during the comment period. Now may be the time for the FAA to take the program back. ICAS certainly hasn't shown any initiative in improving the safety record of the more experience performers. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
I was just walking through the gates when this accident happened. One
moment two airplanes were flying around, and the next moment there was black smoke. The airplane descended below my viewing angle.People standing right by the runway saw the whole thing. It makes me wonder if it is really necessary to get down that low just for the benefit of the spectators standing by the runway perimeter. The majority of people standing at a distance won't see anything at such low altitudes. But there is a video on youtube that made me curious. It shows the aircraft spinning downwards, then at the moment when it should be pulling up, it enters a cloud of smoke. Is it possible that he flew into something that obscured his visibility and he was unable to tell his altitude? On Jul 29, 12:01 pm, john smith wrote: In article , "Mark G." wrote: It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck, or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw" is intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push the envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the non-flying public? The ACES program is a failure when it comes to experienced performers. While it has probably saved many lives of those new to airshow performing, the more experience performers seem to have forgotten the lessons they have been teaching while actings as instructors. When the program was implemented in the 1980's as a partnership between the FAA and the airshow industry (ie - ICAS), it was originally a very rigid cirriculum which dealt with aircraft performance under a wide range of conditions. This was heavily diluted during the comment period. Now may be the time for the FAA to take the program back. ICAS certainly hasn't shown any initiative in improving the safety record of the more experience performers. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
I am an "actual pilot" and I do not enjoy watching low level aerobatics --
so I don't. "Mark G." wrote in message ... It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck, or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw" is intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push the envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the non-flying public? I also think that aviation is ill-served by such risk-taking. Every accident offers another opportunity for a grandstanding politician to call for new restrictions on our privileges. -Mark |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message . .. "Doug Semler" wrote in message ups.com... On Jul 28, 7:39 pm, "Gerald S." wrote: Doug Semler wrote: On Jul 28, 6:44 pm, "Blueskies" wrote: ..Spun in down at Dayton. Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in the sky... Blue skies forever... Big bummer. The only time I saw him was in Salinas a year and a half ago. I had never heard of him before and was thinking "This guy is balls to the wall and beyond insane." After seeing more videos of him, he became my favorite acro pilot. Anyone hear what happened? Gerald The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude during a pullout and pancaked to the ground... Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes *that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the sight lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway. A higher minimum altitude, with corresponding higher entry altitudes, would have saved quite a few great pilots over the years. KB I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits " here. Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the fact that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay, you have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive. That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware what they go to a show to see. If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother. I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could still be alive. Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the language) Balls to the Wall flying we see . Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow. Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me). |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits
" here. Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the fact that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay, you have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive. That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware what they go to a show to see. If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother. I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could still be alive. Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the language) Balls to the Wall flying we see . Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow. Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me). No, it is not just you. NASCAR annoys me for a because the cars, as currently furmulated, have nothing to do with the models they are supposed to represent--other than making some production models less practical in order to let the race cars fit within the side profile rules. I do not watch that crap, and still might not if they ran stock cars; but then, at least, I might consider it. OTOH, the X-Games and a lot of the crazy stunts, illusions, and pyrotechnics for TV and Movies create an apparent demand for ever creater spectacles. However, there may still be a question as to whether that demand is real, in order to please Joe Sixpack, or purely in the minds of the promoters. Peter Just my $0.02, and worth what you paid. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:16:08 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote: I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits " here. Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the fact that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay, you have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive. That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware what they go to a show to see. If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother. I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could still be alive. Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the language) Balls to the Wall flying we see . Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow. Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me). No, it is not just you. NASCAR annoys me for a because the cars, as currently furmulated, have nothing to do with the models they are supposed to represent--other than making some production models less practical in order to let the race cars fit within the side profile rules. I do not watch that crap, and still might not if they ran stock cars; but then, at least, I might consider it. OTOH, the X-Games and a lot of the crazy stunts, illusions, and pyrotechnics for TV and Movies create an apparent demand for ever creater spectacles. However, there may still be a question as to whether that demand is real, in order to please Joe Sixpack, or purely in the minds of the promoters. Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley? Don |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
Don Tuite wrote: Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley? Don It's an extremely complicated answer Don. A good friend of mine, Gen Des Barker of the South African Air Force and ex member of the Silver Falcons Jet Demonstration Team has written an entire book on just this subject. I was pleased to have my own input included in this work. The book is perhaps the most extensive volume ever written on airshow safety and demonstration flying. If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link if you want a copy. Other than that, the ultimate answer to this issue is that everybody gets a piece of the responsibility. I don't believe the blame can be laid on any one factor, as all factors are in play on any given day at any air show. Dudley Henriques |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Don Tuite wrote: Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley? Don It's an extremely complicated answer Don. A good friend of mine, Gen Des Barker of the South African Air Force and ex member of the Silver Falcons Jet Demonstration Team has written an entire book on just this subject. I was pleased to have my own input included in this work. The book is perhaps the most extensive volume ever written on airshow safety and demonstration flying. If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link if you want a copy. Other than that, the ultimate answer to this issue is that everybody gets a piece of the responsibility. I don't believe the blame can be laid on any one factor, as all factors are in play on any given day at any air show. Dudley Henriques By all means, Dudley, go ahead and post the link. Peter |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Jim Leroy went in today...
alas amazon says
Availability: Currently unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock. "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... [snip] If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link if you want a copy. [snip] Dudley Henriques |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Jim Leroy went in today... | Blueskies | Piloting | 34 | August 2nd 07 03:44 AM |
Today in Oshkosh [5/9] - "05 C47 used by Liberty chuters today.jpg" yEnc (1/1) | Just Plane Noise[_2_] | Aviation Photos | 0 | July 27th 07 01:49 AM |
D.C. anti-war rally on C-SPAN today at 8:15 AM on the west coast of US and at 11:15 AM on east coast - President Carter at Brandeis on C-SPAN 2's 'Book TV' today at 12:30 PM (on the west coast and at 3:30 PM on the east coast): | [email protected] | Naval Aviation | 0 | January 27th 07 02:18 PM |
Had WAY too much fun today... | Simon Robbins | Rotorcraft | 2 | October 20th 05 10:51 PM |
767 at LAX did a go-around today! | Bob Gardner | Piloting | 15 | August 21st 03 01:12 PM |