Instrument Student Pilot Filing IFR

Guys I appreciate all the input, no one asked me why I posed the thread
question.

But as you will all realize, I started this thread because of a personnel
experience.
I am a few hours away from my instrument check ride.

In the recent past my instructor had been asking me to plan & file weekly
IFR training flights to specified satelite airports within Class B airspace.
He looked over my planning, but never changed my routings, so I could learn
from either being "cleared as filed" or struggle with an entirely different
clearance.
I filed the IFR plans in my own name, but added "Instrument Training Flight"
in the comments section on my own inititive.
I was hoping that I might be given an easier time by ATC by declaring the
flight plan as a training flight.
Also I frequently advised clearance delivery that I was a student instrument
pilot.
At first my CFII would listen in while I gained my clearance but as the
flights accumulated and I gained proficiency he just made sure that I had
the clearance with no missing data. He also encouraged me to file at
altitudes which would put us in actual IMC as much as possible.
In fact he would chastise me if my filed height was between layers. I had
not studied the weather properly !
I felt very fortunate to be getting real IFR experience, flying well and
truly in the system, before getting the rating.

Alas, my instructor is no more and his replacement, a very decent and young
enthusiastic CFII, is astounded that I was filing and getting my own
clearances.
Now he does the planning, file the plans and gets the clearances. I fly the
plane while he talks to ATC. He is PIC and may as well take the left seat.
However, as I said, he is a nice guy and he is giving me the final few
hours that I need to log before being eligable for the checkride.
Ok I have arguably bust the FAR's, but I know which guy I would prefer in my
right seat !

Roy

The person who is ABLE to legally recieve the clearance is who's name is
listed as PIC. The student can file.. but the CFII's name goes on the
plan.


How do the heavy crews handle this stuff. ?
Does the dispatcher list who is PIC ?

Roy

yep
"Roy N5804F" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
|
|
| The person who is ABLE to legally recieve the clearance
is who's name is
| listed as PIC. The student can file.. but the CFII's
name goes on the
| plan.
|
|
| How do the heavy crews handle this stuff. ?
| Does the dispatcher list who is PIC ?
|
| Roy
|
|
|

Roy,
You pose an interesting question! When I did my instrument training I
always filed under my instructors name (neither of my two instructors
ever commented on this).

So to add to your question, I'm now wondering:
I usually only file my last name, and have never received a single
question by the briefer about it. Do any of you know if you are
supposed to file first and last name? Also I had always assumed (as
mentioned by some of you) that the name only ever mattered if there was
an incident. Barring any incidents, do any of you know if ATC/FAA ever
even looks at the name on any flightplan? What if we all filed as
"Smith" one day to see if they pay attention.....

By the way, good luck on your checkride. I hope that you can work out
the issues with your new instructor. Maybe he/she doesn't realize that
they are doing things "differently"?
-Jamie

"Roy N5804F" wrote:
Alas, my instructor is no more and his replacement, a very decent and young
enthusiastic CFII, is astounded that I was filing and getting my own
clearances.
Now he does the planning, file the plans and gets the clearances. I fly the
plane while he talks to ATC. He is PIC and may as well take the left seat.
However, as I said, he is a nice guy and he is giving me the final few
hours that I need to log before being eligable for the checkride.
Ok I have arguably bust the FAR's, but I know which guy I would prefer in my
right seat !

One of the hardest things about learning to be an instructor is learning to
shut up and sit on your hands. It sounds like your guy hasn't learned this
yet.

He's cheating you by doing all that stuff for you. Tell him you want to do
it all yourself (just like you used to).

On the other hand, if you're really just a few hours away from the
checkride, and you feel confident about your skills, he really is just
there for the ride and to give you some signatures when you need them.

If he really is doing all the talking on the radio, take advantage of the
workload reduction and concentrate that much more on flying perfectly. See
if you can hold altitude to +/- 20 feet and heading to +/- 1 degree.
Concentrate on flying the ILS to +/- 1 dot deflection on either needle.
This is far more accurately than you'll ever have to do on the checkride
(or in real life).

"Cirrus" wrote:
I usually only file my last name, and have never received a single
question by the briefer about it. Do any of you know if you are
supposed to file first and last name?

I don't know of any regulation which requires you to put down two names in
the PIC box. Some things are left to common sense. It's also not the
briefer's job to enforce regulations. If you tell him the PIC's name is
Zaphod Beeblebrox, he'll type Zaphod Beeblebrox into the box on the screen.
Maybe your name is "The student pilot formerly known as Prince"?

Also I had always assumed (as
mentioned by some of you) that the name only ever mattered if there was
an incident. Barring any incidents, do any of you know if ATC/FAA ever
even looks at the name on any flightplan?

ATC only sees some subset of the fields you file in your flight plan. I
don't remember exactly which ones they get (everything up to the REMARKS
section?), but the PIC's name isn't one of them. All that stuff about home
base, souls on board, paint color, etc, is purely for SAR and accident
investigation purposes.

Trillian?



"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
| "Cirrus" wrote:
| I usually only file my last name, and have never
received a single
| question by the briefer about it. Do any of you know if
you are
| supposed to file first and last name?
|
| I don't know of any regulation which requires you to put
down two names in
| the PIC box. Some things are left to common sense. It's
also not the
| briefer's job to enforce regulations. If you tell him the
PIC's name is
| Zaphod Beeblebrox, he'll type Zaphod Beeblebrox into the
box on the screen.
| Maybe your name is "The student pilot formerly known as
Prince"?
|
| Also I had always assumed (as
| mentioned by some of you) that the name only ever
mattered if there was
| an incident. Barring any incidents, do any of you know
if ATC/FAA ever
| even looks at the name on any flightplan?
|
| ATC only sees some subset of the fields you file in your
flight plan. I
| don't remember exactly which ones they get (everything up
to the REMARKS
| section?), but the PIC's name isn't one of them. All that
stuff about home
| base, souls on board, paint color, etc, is purely for SAR
and accident
| investigation purposes.

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:50:47 -0500, Ron Natalie
wrote:

Roy N5804F wrote:

Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR in his own name in
order to undergo instrument training while accompanied by his CFII ?
In other words.
Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ? The student or the
CFII ?

Thanks for input


There is no prohibition on who can file. The ONLY issue is that the
flight plan MUST bear the name (by regulation) of the pilot in command
which can't be the student. This gets sticky on DUAT (at least the
GTE one) because they always insert the registered user's name in
the PIC field.

That's probably OK any way as I'd bet half the students file under
their own name rather than the instructors. You call and Identify
yourself asking for a briefing and would like to file IFR for (what
ever aircraft) Unless identified as an IFR training flight FSS is
likely to have already entered that by the time you get to it. That
happened to me on a number of occasions.



I filed my instructor's name via FSS when I was doing my training.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Mark Hansen wrote:

As PIC, the CFII would be the one officially accepting the clearance (or
not) - non-verbally. The student would only be copying it to paper and
reading it back.

It's not even so involved. The student can accept the clearance.
The PIC is just ultimately responsible. Command is more of a
responsibility thing than any particular act.

Jim Macklin wrote:
The reason is in the FAR, you have to be a certificated and
current instrument rated pilot, in an aircraft certified for
IFR flight to file an IFR flight plan.

No such FAR.

Simply filing the flight plan OR operating in IMC condition
is a violation. IFR flight plan in VMC is a violation
unless the PIC NAMED, not just PIC is legal.

PIC must be named on ANY flight plan (IFR or VFR).
91.153 (a)(3) The full name and address of the pilot in command.

The IFR plan only adds the alternate airport.