PowerFlarm BRICK range issues - are we alone????

Three members at my club (self included) have installed PowerFlarm bricks recently. We carefully read and have complied with the antenna separation requirements in the manual. As is stands currently, the maximum xperienced communication range (Flarm to Flarm) is about 2.2 miles and it frequently drops out around 1.3-1.5 miles. Regarding PCAS operation, the only alert I have received using the PowerFlarm Brick has been the towplane at a distance of about 1000-1500 feet lateraly, same altitude. At the same time my Zaon PCAS alerted to the same towplane at a range of 2+ miles and 1000 feet below.

The three gliders are a Ventus 1, Discus 2, and a PIK. All three seem to be experiencing the same issues with very poor range. Emails to FLARM have seemed to fall on deaf ears. We're curious if we're the only ones or if others are also seeing the same issues with BRICKS. We've heard plenty from portable users who are reporting 6+ miles Flarm to Flarm and PCAS alerts approaching 5 miles. If changes to the installation will fix this, great! We just need to know what to change. The US dealer has seen pics of our installation and says the antenna installations look good. They are all on the top of the glare shields so should be excellent visibility. We'd like this to work, but if there is no option to improve the performance then sending the stuff back is certainly on the table. More testing this weekend, but at the moment it's not looking good.

Mark,

If the aerial is well installed, so that the "visibility" is equal in all
directions, I believe that 2-3 miles range is good. If someone
can see another glider from distance of 6 miles, then AFAIK the
antenna gain is strong into that direction, but weak in other
directions. In you make a directional antenna, you lost the
performance in all other directions. The antennas delivered with
FLARM are omni-directional, so the range analysis is spherical in
optimum case.

Have you used
http://www.flarm.com/support/analyze/index_en.html
to analyze the range?

-kh

At 15:56 01 October 2012, Mark wrote:
Three members at my club (self included) have installed
PowerFlarm bricks
r=
ecently. We carefully read and have complied with the
antenna separation
r=
equirements in the manual. As is stands currently, the
maximum xperienced
=
communication range (Flarm to Flarm) is about 2.2 miles and it
frequently
d=
rops out around 1.3-1.5 miles. Regarding PCAS operation, the
only alert I
=
have received using the PowerFlarm Brick has been the
towplane at a
distanc=
e of about 1000-1500 feet lateraly, same altitude. At the same
time my
Zao=
n PCAS alerted to the same towplane at a range of 2+ miles
and 1000 feet
be=
low.

The three gliders are a Ventus 1, Discus 2, and a PIK. All
three seem to
b=
e experiencing the same issues with very poor range. Emails
to FLARM have
=
seemed to fall on deaf ears. We're curious if we're the only
ones or if
ot=
hers are also seeing the same issues with BRICKS. We've
heard plenty from
=
portable users who are reporting 6+ miles Flarm to Flarm and
PCAS alerts
ap=
proaching 5 miles. If changes to the installation will fix this,
great!
W=
e just need to know what to change. The US dealer has seen
pics of our
ins=
tallation and says the antenna installations look good. They
are all on
th=
e top of the glare shields so should be excellent visibility. We'd
like
th=
is to work, but if there is no option to improve the performance
then
sendi=
ng the stuff back is certainly on the table. More testing this
weekend,
bu=
t at the moment it's not looking good.

PowerFlarm users are not able to use this tool as our units do not
produce an IGC file at this point. I have a PowerFlarm brick installed
in an ASW27 and my range seems to be 4KM which is plenty for collision
avoidance, pcas and adsb ranges are definitely reduced as compared to
the portable unit that I had previously.

Luke Szczepaniak



On 10/01/2012 12:24 PM, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
Mark,

If the aerial is well installed, so that the "visibility" is equal in all
directions, I believe that 2-3 miles range is good. If someone
can see another glider from distance of 6 miles, then AFAIK the
antenna gain is strong into that direction, but weak in other
directions. In you make a directional antenna, you lost the
performance in all other directions. The antennas delivered with
FLARM are omni-directional, so the range analysis is spherical in
optimum case.

Have you used
http://www.flarm.com/support/analyze/index_en.html
to analyze the range?

-kh

At 15:56 01 October 2012, Mark wrote:
Three members at my club (self included) have installed
PowerFlarm bricks
r=
ecently. We carefully read and have complied with the
antenna separation
r=
equirements in the manual. As is stands currently, the
maximum xperienced
=
communication range (Flarm to Flarm) is about 2.2 miles and it
frequently
d=
rops out around 1.3-1.5 miles. Regarding PCAS operation, the
only alert I
=
have received using the PowerFlarm Brick has been the
towplane at a
distanc=
e of about 1000-1500 feet lateraly, same altitude. At the same
time my
Zao=
n PCAS alerted to the same towplane at a range of 2+ miles
and 1000 feet
be=
low.

The three gliders are a Ventus 1, Discus 2, and a PIK. All
three seem to
b=
e experiencing the same issues with very poor range. Emails
to FLARM have
=
seemed to fall on deaf ears. We're curious if we're the only
ones or if
ot=
hers are also seeing the same issues with BRICKS. We've
heard plenty from
=
portable users who are reporting 6+ miles Flarm to Flarm and
PCAS alerts
ap=
proaching 5 miles. If changes to the installation will fix this,
great!
W=
e just need to know what to change. The US dealer has seen
pics of our
ins=
tallation and says the antenna installations look good. They
are all on
th=
e top of the glare shields so should be excellent visibility. We'd
like
th=
is to work, but if there is no option to improve the performance
then
sendi=
ng the stuff back is certainly on the table. More testing this
weekend,
bu=
t at the moment it's not looking good.

Mark, how is your config file setup?

Kirk

On Oct 1, 9:30*am, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
The antennas delivered with
FLARM are omni-directional, so the range analysis is spherical in
optimum case.


A dipole is not omni-directional. The pattern of an ideal dipole in
free space is not sherical. Why do you believe that the antennas
delivered with FLARM are omni-directional?


Andy

On Monday, October 1, 2012 11:56:14 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
Three members at my club (self included) have installed PowerFlarm bricks recently. We carefully read and have complied with the antenna separation requirements in the manual. As is stands currently, the maximum xperienced communication range (Flarm to Flarm) is about 2.2 miles and it frequently drops out around 1.3-1.5 miles. Regarding PCAS operation, the only alert I have received using the PowerFlarm Brick has been the towplane at a distance of about 1000-1500 feet lateraly, same altitude. At the same time my Zaon PCAS alerted to the same towplane at a range of 2+ miles and 1000 feet below. The three gliders are a Ventus 1, Discus 2, and a PIK. All three seem to be experiencing the same issues with very poor range. Emails to FLARM have seemed to fall on deaf ears. We're curious if we're the only ones or if others are also seeing the same issues with BRICKS. We've heard plenty from portable users who are reporting 6+ miles Flarm to Flarm and PCAS alerts approaching 5 miles. If changes to the installation will fix this, great! We just need to know what to change. The US dealer has seen pics of our installation and says the antenna installations look good. They are all on the top of the glare shields so should be excellent visibility. We'd like this to work, but if there is no option to improve the performance then sending the stuff back is certainly on the table. More testing this weekend, but at the moment it's not looking good.

It would seem that the range you are getting is good enough to provide the anti-collision properties that this device is intended to provide, at least glider to glider. Seeing other gliders for tactical purposes is what you get beyond the range that you are reporting. Nice to have, but not getting this would not seem to be a reason to pull the plug on the use of it in your glider.
I use a single element Flarm antenna on my glare shield in my '27 and see gliders to about 4 miles or so. I don't have any feedback on PCAS function.
FWIW
UH

Andy, you are right, the antenna is not necessary the dipole
version.
I think that dipole antenna is omnidirectional, since it radiates
equally in all directions in plane. The radiation pattern should be
donut shape.
If antenna is 1/4 wave stick on ground plate, isn't the pattern a half
sphere?

At 18:00 01 October 2012, Andy wrote:
On Oct 1, 9:30=A0am, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
The antennas delivered with
FLARM are omni-directional, so the range analysis is spherical in
optimum case.


A dipole is not omni-directional. The pattern of an ideal dipole in
free space is not sherical. Why do you believe that the antennas
delivered with FLARM are omni-directional?


Andy

On Monday, October 1, 2012 11:36:26 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
On Monday, October 1, 2012 11:56:14 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:

Three members at my club (self included) have installed PowerFlarm bricks recently. We carefully read and have complied with the antenna separation requirements in the manual. As is stands currently, the maximum xperienced communication range (Flarm to Flarm) is about 2.2 miles and it frequently drops out around 1.3-1.5 miles. Regarding PCAS operation, the only alert I have received using the PowerFlarm Brick has been the towplane at a distance of about 1000-1500 feet lateraly, same altitude. At the same time my Zaon PCAS alerted to the same towplane at a range of 2+ miles and 1000 feet below. The three gliders are a Ventus 1, Discus 2, and a PIK. All three seem to be experiencing the same issues with very poor range. Emails to FLARM have seemed to fall on deaf ears. We're curious if we're the only ones or if others are also seeing the same issues with BRICKS. We've heard plenty from portable users who are reporting 6+ miles Flarm to Flarm and PCAS alerts approaching 5 miles. If changes to the installation will fix this, great! We just need to know what to change. The US dealer has seen pics of our installation and says the antenna installations look good. They are all on the top of the glare shields so should be excellent visibility. We'd like this to work, but if there is no option to improve the performance then sending the stuff back is certainly on the table. More testing this weekend, but at the moment it's not looking good.



It would seem that the range you are getting is good enough to provide the anti-collision properties that this device is intended to provide, at least glider to glider. Seeing other gliders for tactical purposes is what you get beyond the range that you are reporting. Nice to have, but not getting this would not seem to be a reason to pull the plug on the use of it in your glider.

I use a single element Flarm antenna on my glare shield in my '27 and see gliders to about 4 miles or so. I don't have any feedback on PCAS function..

FWIW

UH

I think there is a consensus on 3 issues:
1 - Poor PCAS performance.
2 - Poor flarm performance in portables, but not bricks. Most bricks I know of getting 2-3 miles which is plenty enough for collision avoidance if you pay attention immediately.
3 - The support and manuals sucks.

None of the above should be a reason to delay purchase or return the unit. I am confident they will all get addressed in the near future.

Ramy

On Monday, October 1, 2012 8:56:14 AM UTC-7, Mark wrote:
Three members at my club (self included) have installed PowerFlarm bricks recently. We carefully read and have complied with the antenna separation requirements in the manual. As is stands currently, the maximum xperienced communication range (Flarm to Flarm) is about 2.2 miles and it frequently drops out around 1.3-1.5 miles. Regarding PCAS operation, the only alert I have received using the PowerFlarm Brick has been the towplane at a distance of about 1000-1500 feet lateraly, same altitude. At the same time my Zaon PCAS alerted to the same towplane at a range of 2+ miles and 1000 feet below. The three gliders are a Ventus 1, Discus 2, and a PIK. All three seem to be experiencing the same issues with very poor range. Emails to FLARM have seemed to fall on deaf ears. We're curious if we're the only ones or if others are also seeing the same issues with BRICKS. We've heard plenty from portable users who are reporting 6+ miles Flarm to Flarm and PCAS alerts approaching 5 miles. If changes to the installation will fix this, great! We just need to know what to change. The US dealer has seen pics of our installation and says the antenna installations look good. They are all on the top of the glare shields so should be excellent visibility. We'd like this to work, but if there is no option to improve the performance then sending the stuff back is certainly on the table. More testing this weekend, but at the moment it's not looking good.

I am getting 4 to 6 nm with the brick. Other gliders also have the brick.
I am not using the Butterfly displays, PowerFlarm to LX Navigation 1606 - Craggy Aero Ultimate Le,

I have a 1/2 wave Flarm A antenna and the dipole Flarm B antenna. Ventus b 1/2 wave on the inst panel cover and dipole in the nose.

You can see the antenna on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0IVkHUnWU

Antennas:

http://www.craggyaero.com/cables_&_antennas.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Monday, October 1, 2012 11:49:32 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
Mark, how is your config file setup?



Kirk

Kirk,

For lateral range initially I had no values in my config so the assumption is default should be maximum. Next time out I have a new config file which I've chosen 9000 meters for the lateral range for the PCAS function which equates to 5 miles. That's equivalent to the Zaon. I'd like to hope that this will help. The absolute silence from the manufacturer makes me more and more suspicious that there is yet another hardware issue going on here.