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"Refusing to Handle You"



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 16th 05, 11:08 PM
Mike Granby
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Default "Refusing to Handle You"


So, an interesting thing happened today. I am at a fly-in at Hagerstown
and about to head back to my home-base at York (THV). I can see from
the PC they had there that there is a line of heavy rain and possibly
thunderstorms blocking my route back. There is no way around it to the
north, but there is a way to the south. So, instead of the usual
KHGR-SCAPE-THV to take me north of Camp David, I file a route via
HGR-MRB-EMI to so south and get in to York through the back door.
When I pick up my clearance, I am given the route via SCAPE, but I
"unable" that for weather, and they go away for a few minutes, and then
clear me as filed. I take off, and everything is fine, until I'm headed
southbound from the HGR VOR, when the Washington Center controller
calls me and says "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle
you, say intentions." So now, here I am, in the air with two small kids
on board, and being turned back towards what was, a while back at
least, some nasty weather. I ask for a hold at HGR to consider my
options, and luckily, by now the StormScope is showing the line has
dissipated. Now, I'm not happy, 'cos I know there's been cells
appearing along that route all PM, but I have little choice, so I take
the SCAPE route. All ends well, and we have an almost smooth ride, but
I was amazed that they gave me a clearance for that route, and then
wouldn't honor it! Comments???

  #2  
Old July 16th 05, 11:58 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default


"Mike Granby" wrote in message
ups.com...

So, an interesting thing happened today. I am at a fly-in at Hagerstown
and about to head back to my home-base at York (THV). I can see from
the PC they had there that there is a line of heavy rain and possibly
thunderstorms blocking my route back. There is no way around it to the
north, but there is a way to the south. So, instead of the usual
KHGR-SCAPE-THV to take me north of Camp David, I file a route via
HGR-MRB-EMI to so south and get in to York through the back door.
When I pick up my clearance, I am given the route via SCAPE, but I
"unable" that for weather, and they go away for a few minutes, and then
clear me as filed. I take off, and everything is fine, until I'm headed
southbound from the HGR VOR, when the Washington Center controller
calls me and says "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle
you, say intentions." So now, here I am, in the air with two small kids
on board, and being turned back towards what was, a while back at
least, some nasty weather. I ask for a hold at HGR to consider my
options, and luckily, by now the StormScope is showing the line has
dissipated. Now, I'm not happy, 'cos I know there's been cells
appearing along that route all PM, but I have little choice, so I take
the SCAPE route. All ends well, and we have an almost smooth ride, but
I was amazed that they gave me a clearance for that route, and then
wouldn't honor it! Comments???


Some TRACONs simply do not handle thruflights, that may be the case here.
One way around that is to make a stop at a field within that TRACON's
airspace. Then you're not a thruflight, you're an arrival and a departure.


  #3  
Old July 17th 05, 12:07 AM
Mike Granby
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Default


One way around that is to make a stop
at a field within that TRACON's airspace.


I know someone who pulled this trick on NYC TRACON once, but he even
had the nerve to call them as he neared the airport he'd file to, and
ask to change his destination to where he really want to go!
Apparently, there was much sighing from the controller, but in the end,
the pilot got what he wanted.

  #4  
Old July 17th 05, 05:10 AM
Lynne
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Default

Back before I retired from Tower Air, we used to do something similar
quite frequently. I was on the B747-200 and a route which I did quite
frequently was JFK to LLBG (Ben Gurion; Tel Aviv, Israel). Due to range
constraints on the -200, we would not be able to legally file LLBG as
our destination, due to inadequate fuel reserves. Due to this, we would
file for LGAV (Athens, Greece) out of JFK, and approximately 500 NM
from LGAV, if the weather was good at LLBG, and we had the fuel to do
it, we would refile for LLBG. If the weather or fuel situation was not
good, we would land at LGAV, and fuel up then continue on to LLBG.

In the many years that I did this, Eurocontrol never once gave me any
trouble about it. It's a perfectly legitimate way to go about your
business while in the IFR system.

Lynne

  #5  
Old July 17th 05, 02:17 AM
Matt Whiting
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Default

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mike Granby" wrote in message
ups.com...

So, an interesting thing happened today. I am at a fly-in at Hagerstown
and about to head back to my home-base at York (THV). I can see from
the PC they had there that there is a line of heavy rain and possibly
thunderstorms blocking my route back. There is no way around it to the
north, but there is a way to the south. So, instead of the usual
KHGR-SCAPE-THV to take me north of Camp David, I file a route via
HGR-MRB-EMI to so south and get in to York through the back door.
When I pick up my clearance, I am given the route via SCAPE, but I
"unable" that for weather, and they go away for a few minutes, and then
clear me as filed. I take off, and everything is fine, until I'm headed
southbound from the HGR VOR, when the Washington Center controller
calls me and says "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle
you, say intentions." So now, here I am, in the air with two small kids
on board, and being turned back towards what was, a while back at
least, some nasty weather. I ask for a hold at HGR to consider my
options, and luckily, by now the StormScope is showing the line has
dissipated. Now, I'm not happy, 'cos I know there's been cells
appearing along that route all PM, but I have little choice, so I take
the SCAPE route. All ends well, and we have an almost smooth ride, but
I was amazed that they gave me a clearance for that route, and then
wouldn't honor it! Comments???



Some TRACONs simply do not handle thruflights, that may be the case here.
One way around that is to make a stop at a field within that TRACON's
airspace. Then you're not a thruflight, you're an arrival and a departure.



Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of
the clearance?


Matt
  #6  
Old July 17th 05, 02:56 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of the
clearance?


They probably did. Remember, they initially issued a different route which
was declined due to weather. Perhaps they then issued the route through the
TRACON hoping they could sell it to approach.


  #7  
Old July 17th 05, 01:18 PM
Matt Whiting
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Default

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of the
clearance?



They probably did. Remember, they initially issued a different route which
was declined due to weather. Perhaps they then issued the route through the
TRACON hoping they could sell it to approach.



OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before
being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed
that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved.
I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open
this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me.


Matt
  #8  
Old July 17th 05, 01:29 PM
Roy Smith
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Default

Matt Whiting wrote:
OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before
being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed
that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved.
I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open
this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me.


Are you saying you've never gotten a reroute in flight?
  #9  
Old July 17th 05, 04:53 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before
being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed
that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved.
I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open this
sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me.


"Pre-selling" your clearance end-to-end before issuing it would create a
pretty inflexible system, one that could handle only a fraction of the
traffic it does now. What if a thunderstorm cell popped up on your route.
You'd probably like to deviate around it. So you ask ATC to deviate 20
degrees left of course and the response is, "Unable, that will put you into
airspace that has been pre-sold to another IFR flight." I don't think you'd
be happy with that response.


  #10  
Old July 31st 05, 05:42 AM
Allan9
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Posts: n/a
Default

Steve do they still use PDR, PDAR, and PARs?.
Al

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by ATC prior to issuance of
the clearance?


They probably did. Remember, they initially issued a different route
which was declined due to weather. Perhaps they then issued the route
through the TRACON hoping they could sell it to approach.



 




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