The Superior King Tiger

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...
(snip)

LOL.... nobody is saying that the Leo's are bad tanks. I haven't heard one
person say that at all. They are fine tanks. German's are great (if
somewhat
overzealous) engineers. What we are saying, however, is that the Leo's are
totally unproven in combat, and that all final judgements regarding any
weapons system is contingent upon actual combat experience. The M1 series
has plenty of combat time under it's belt, and has performed, by all
measures, splendidly. It is a combat proven system and is a better tank
than
the Leopard. It has better armor, excellent targeting systems, and it
fires
a better round. Period. You need to get over it.

As for it being 'Europe's premere MBT', what do you expect? It is probably
better than the LeClerc (another parade ground princess), and pigs will
fly
before the protectionist European governments buy big-ticket items from
the
USA (and they don't need to; their domestic defense industries are
adequate), but you have to understand that the military just isn't a
priority there in Europe. The military is in fact on the bottom of their
list. So you cannot expect a nation which takes a 'military-last' attitude
to produce equipment superior to the USA, which actually may need to use
the
stuff at some point.

Challenger II?

And anyone who says Russian tanks are garbage outta have his ass
shipped out in an M-1A2 and land on the outskirts of Moscow in 50
degree below zero weather with Mils, Migs, and Sukhois flying about
and Russian troops armed with ATGWs.

One tank against the entire russian armed forces? Sure, what the hell....

But seriously, you are just being an idiot now (moreso). The scenario you
just described is pretty much EXACTLY what the M1 tank was designed for.
And
you are also assuming that we would not have achieved air superiority
before
sending our armor in; which we would havem being that it is the US
tactical
doctorine to only send in ground forces after the air is secured. And the
only bigger joke than the Russian army is the Russian air force (well
maybe
it's tied with their navy). We don't fight wars with just tanks.

No takers?... didn't think so since the M-1A2 is confined to attacking
puny nations with poor import stripped armor of the FSU crewed by
sand-dwelling conscripts.

LOL... 'confined'... whatever you say. And I'm not so sure that the modern
Russian tank crews are any better trained than the Iraqi's were. Our armed
forces are a total and complete overmatch for any other armed force on the
globe. Period. It's not even close.

Yeah, you are certainly doing a good job in Iraq just now.



Tanks and all.

John

"DavidG35" wrote in message
news:f7Wmc.85177$Jy3.21686@fed1read03...
hahahaha That was a good one!

That would shake stuff up - Knit one, pearl two, FIRE IN THE HOLE! FOOM!

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
Robert, you win the award for starting the "Most OT post" today. What's
next?
Planning on posting something on Rec.Arts.Needlepoint about
nebelwerfers?

"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz5.htm

SNIP

Rob

Um, what does this have to do with military aviation? Other than the
military aviation of the Allies hurting German tank production?

"Chad Irby" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
(B2431) wrote:

From: Chad Irby
Date: 5/7/2004 6:36 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz5.htm

Better than any mass-produced piece-of-**** Sherman (except the
Firefly British conversion).

...as long as you didn't mind that it had to pretty much sit there and
not go very far, due to high ground pressure and very high fuel
consumption (a King Tiger in mud became a landmark). Add in the very
high maintenance problems, and you had a really tough, sorta-mobile
fortress. The Allies did the obvious and ran around the KTs,
destroying
their support structure, then captured and destroyed a lot of them
after
they ran out of gas.

Definitely follows on the German habit in WWII of coming up with a
really cool design that turned out to be a problem to build and
support.

Did you happen to notice the article teuton offered as proof of what
a wonder weapon King Tiger was actually describes what a flop it
really was?

Yeah, but I've known about the weaknesses of the King Tiger since some
time in the early 1970s, when I started getting interested in WWII. You
might note that the problems with the King Tiger were mirrored quite
often with most of the things the Germans tried to build in the 1940-45
time period. Too expensive, hard to maintain, and used up too much time
and resources that they needed in other places.

A lot of the Ballantine War Books covered the problems the Germans had
with overengineering their machines. The Maus was one of my favorites
(the coaxial 128mm and 75mm guns were a bit much, not to mention the 188
tons of weight in the damned thing.

Then there was the seldom-mentioned Krupp P1000 Rat. One THOUSAND tons.
Two 280mm main guns. Or the P1500 variant with an 800mm mortar(!) and a
couple of 150mm cannons... (I still have trouble believing that they
were really thinking of building something like this, even early in the
war).

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/p1000.htm

I wonder what the rough field performance was? Max speed for mobile warfare?

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Russian tank crews are any better trained than the Iraqi's were. Our armed
forces are a total and complete overmatch for any other armed force on the
globe. Period. It's not even close.


In the eve of the most important paradigm shift in the warfare since the
invention of gun powder its more a liability than an asset.
You might want to use your current military assets agressively before paradigm
shift (while they are still useful) to streghten your positions,but if your
peer competitor is very good on setting up a "Global Trap" for you and might
force you to waste your very limited resources for nothing.
(Any similarities with Brzezinskis' "Afghanistan Trap" are of course purely
coincidental)
As far as I can see, as paradigm shift nears,US administrations are getting
more nervous and aggressive and making even more mistakes
Thats so simple..

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
Robert, you win the award for starting the "Most OT post" today. What's
next?
Planning on posting something on Rec.Arts.Needlepoint about nebelwerfers?

Arndt mode on - THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST NEEDLEPOINT WAS CULTURALLY SUPERIOR
TO ALL OTHER FORMS!!!!!! Arndt mode off.

"John Mullen" wrote in message
t...
"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...
(snip)

LOL.... nobody is saying that the Leo's are bad tanks. I haven't heard
one
person say that at all. They are fine tanks. German's are great (if
somewhat
overzealous) engineers. What we are saying, however, is that the Leo's
are
totally unproven in combat, and that all final judgements regarding any
weapons system is contingent upon actual combat experience. The M1
series
has plenty of combat time under it's belt, and has performed, by all
measures, splendidly. It is a combat proven system and is a better tank
than
the Leopard. It has better armor, excellent targeting systems, and it
fires
a better round. Period. You need to get over it.

As for it being 'Europe's premere MBT', what do you expect? It is
probably
better than the LeClerc (another parade ground princess), and pigs will
fly
before the protectionist European governments buy big-ticket items from
the
USA (and they don't need to; their domestic defense industries are
adequate), but you have to understand that the military just isn't a
priority there in Europe. The military is in fact on the bottom of their
list. So you cannot expect a nation which takes a 'military-last'
attitude
to produce equipment superior to the USA, which actually may need to use
the
stuff at some point.

Challenger II?

To most of the EU, buying big-ticket items from the Brits is pretty much the
same as buying from the USA. Great Britian is not a full EU participant, and
(smartly) doesn't plan to be anytime soon.

But the Challenger II is another fine, battle-proven piece of hardware.


And anyone who says Russian tanks are garbage outta have his ass
shipped out in an M-1A2 and land on the outskirts of Moscow in 50
degree below zero weather with Mils, Migs, and Sukhois flying about
and Russian troops armed with ATGWs.

One tank against the entire russian armed forces? Sure, what the
hell....

But seriously, you are just being an idiot now (moreso). The scenario
you
just described is pretty much EXACTLY what the M1 tank was designed for.
And
you are also assuming that we would not have achieved air superiority
before
sending our armor in; which we would havem being that it is the US
tactical
doctorine to only send in ground forces after the air is secured. And
the
only bigger joke than the Russian army is the Russian air force (well
maybe
it's tied with their navy). We don't fight wars with just tanks.

No takers?... didn't think so since the M-1A2 is confined to attacking
puny nations with poor import stripped armor of the FSU crewed by
sand-dwelling conscripts.

LOL... 'confined'... whatever you say. And I'm not so sure that the
modern
Russian tank crews are any better trained than the Iraqi's were. Our
armed
forces are a total and complete overmatch for any other armed force on
the
globe. Period. It's not even close.

Yeah, you are certainly doing a good job in Iraq just now.


Yeah, we're losing tank battles left and right over there.

I said 'armed forces' vs. other 'armed forces', which is what the Ghost of
Hitler (aka Robert Arndt) posted as a hypothetical in the first place. USA
vs. Russia. Or anyone else for that matter; there isn't a country in the
world that can match the US military.

The situation in Iraq is an insurgent force, and quite honestly, if we
weren't so damn concerned about politics and 'collateral damage' we could
have the insurgency put down in 12 hours. If you don't belive that, then you
are a fool. And quite frankly, it's really only been a very short time
anyway.

But, as I said, as a military, the US armed forces are second to none by a
wide margin. You can make all the snide remarks you like, but it won't
change anything. The envy, however, is palpable.

In article m, David
E. Powell writes
"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz5.htm

SNIP

Rob

Um, what does this have to do with military aviation? Other than the
military aviation of the Allies hurting German tank production?
Or Allied military aviation hurting German tanks. The answer to the
King Tiger was the rocket-firing Typhoon...

Regards,




--
Moramarth

From: "L'acrobat"


"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
Robert, you win the award for starting the "Most OT post" today. What's
next?
Planning on posting something on Rec.Arts.Needlepoint about nebelwerfers?

Arndt mode on - THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST NEEDLEPOINT WAS CULTURALLY SUPERIOR
TO ALL OTHER FORMS!!!!!! Arndt mode off.

Invented, no doubt, by the Waffen SS special scientists?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz5.htm


You criticize the King Tiger when historically the Allies that
actually met it in combat gave it the name "Royal Tiger" out of fear
AND respect. It WAS a formidible machine.

Sure but the Wehrmacht had less than 500 of them. The Western allies
alone had more than 40,000 tanks. Most Allied soldiers
never saw a King Tiger.

Keith