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#11
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"Al Dykes" wrote My take on this is is ill informed. (b)Lots of countries (and many bright higb school kids) can make Sarin, and other nasty material. The stuff is very hard to distribute effectivlly, as shown by the Sarin attack in Japan, and the Christian cult in Idaho (?) that tried to spread biologicals in the public food supply, the handful of people that died in the antrax attacks, and the fact that the Sarin 155mm shell they found in Iraq caused littlre more than a headache. One country with a big stickpile is a problem, but not the end of the world. As it happens, Sarin in impure form breaks down quickly and it's difficult to make in pure form. Aum Shinrikyo found that out. The 155mm shell was a binary munition that depends on setback on firing to start the reaction of the two reagents and the spinning of the shell to get thorough mixing. Both were missing when the shell was used as a IED. While Sarin isn't very effective against MOPP'ed up troops, it's devastating against unprotected populations. : http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html |
#12
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"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... In article , "Keith Willshaw" wrote: "Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... In article , (Al Dykes) wrote: Some people might do well to look at the geology of Syria. The flatter parts are generally sandstone or an equivalent crumbly rock that won't support tunneling much deeper than irrigation. A start was once made on a Damascus subway, but apparently abandoned because every tunnel would have to be steel- or concrete-lined. As is every tunnel on the London Underground, except for some of the older tunnels were cast iron segments or brick linings are used. The more mountainous areas are karst, which does tend to have natural caves, but doesn't lend itself enormously to tunneling. Serious deep excavations, like Cheyenne Mountain, are granite or similar hard rock. You may wish to think again London is built on clay, I guess that means you think they couldnt possibly build the London Underground No, I said _serious_ tunneling. Cheyenne Mountain is a good example of a serious tunneling excavation (and other system) intended to withstand near misses of nuclear weapons, or deep-penetrating PGMs with conventional warheads. Cheyanne Mountain was designed and built long before the concept of deep-penetrating PGM's became a reality, so it is doubtful that it was "intended" to handle that event; it was intended to withstand anything but a direct hit from a high yield nuclear warhead, though. The sea bed under the English Channel is made of soft chalk. Somehow though they managed to build a tunnel under it. The technical breakthrough that makes tunnelling in soft materials isnt exactly new . The use of a tunnelling shield and brick lining dates in modern times was introduced by Marc Brunel but the technique seems to have been known to the Romans. And won't have much effect on a modern penetrating or high blast weapon. Cheyenne Mountain isn't only granite, it's granite in a matrix of steel stabilizing bolts. Zhiguli is presumably comparable. In the middle east the techniques for building extensive underground tunnels have been know since antiquity. The network of irrigation tunnels in Iran are known as the qanat and in Arabia they call them the falaj. Exactly. The qanats are what I'm describing in the Syrian lowlands. They don't and can't go deeply enough to withstand modern bombing. If you think that such facilities can only be built in granite, think again. I'd be very surprised if Mount Weather in Virginia, one of the formerly-secret (along with Raven Rock in Maryland and the congrssional facility at White Hot Springs (IIRC) in West Virginia) emergency relocation sites, was built in anything other than that Karst limestone you ridiculed earlier. Mount Weather and Raven Rock are both tunnel complexes. Brooks |
#13
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On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:25:32 -0400, "Paul F Austin"
wrote: The cratering radius of a 300KT (B-61) nuclear explosion in rock is about 900 feet. If the bunker is more than 10X that distance (45 days drilling), a maximum yeild explosion is unlikely to collapse the bunker. Still, even if the bunker survived, how exactly would the occupants exit, if the entrance hole (or holes) no longer exist? Take Care, James Lerch http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and Coating site) Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. Calvin Coolidge |
#15
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"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... In article , "Keith Willshaw" wrote: "Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... In article , (Al Dykes) wrote: Some people might do well to look at the geology of Syria. The flatter parts are generally sandstone or an equivalent crumbly rock that won't support tunneling much deeper than irrigation. A start was once made on a Damascus subway, but apparently abandoned because every tunnel would have to be steel- or concrete-lined. As is every tunnel on the London Underground, except for some of the older tunnels were cast iron segments or brick linings are used. The more mountainous areas are karst, which does tend to have natural caves, but doesn't lend itself enormously to tunneling. Serious deep excavations, like Cheyenne Mountain, are granite or similar hard rock. You may wish to think again London is built on clay, I guess that means you think they couldnt possibly build the London Underground No, I said _serious_ tunneling. Cheyenne Mountain is a good example of a serious tunneling excavation (and other system) intended to withstand near misses of nuclear weapons, or deep-penetrating PGMs with conventional warheads. I rather think that the hundreds of miles of tunnels that make up the London Underground system are really quite serious. So were the Cabinet war rooms and the underground military HQ in London and Northwood. All built under clay The sea bed under the English Channel is made of soft chalk. Somehow though they managed to build a tunnel under it. The technical breakthrough that makes tunnelling in soft materials isnt exactly new . The use of a tunnelling shield and brick lining dates in modern times was introduced by Marc Brunel but the technique seems to have been known to the Romans. And won't have much effect on a modern penetrating or high blast weapon. It wasnt suggested it would, however a 100ft of clay or sandstone, especially if properly reinforces is rather difficult to penetrate using conventional weapons. Cheyenne Mountain isn't only granite, it's granite in a matrix of steel stabilizing bolts. Zhiguli is presumably comparable. I think the Syrians know about steel and concrete too. In the middle east the techniques for building extensive underground tunnels have been know since antiquity. The network of irrigation tunnels in Iran are known as the qanat and in Arabia they call them the falaj. Exactly. The qanats are what I'm describing in the Syrian lowlands. They don't and can't go deeply enough to withstand modern bombing. But tunnels built using modern techniques can and do. Keith ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#16
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"James Lerch" wrote in message ... On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:25:32 -0400, "Paul F Austin" wrote: The cratering radius of a 300KT (B-61) nuclear explosion in rock is about 900 feet. If the bunker is more than 10X that distance (45 days drilling), a maximum yeild explosion is unlikely to collapse the bunker. Still, even if the bunker survived, how exactly would the occupants exit, if the entrance hole (or holes) no longer exist? That's a decent point although connecting to other exits e.g. railway tunnels or basements of existing buildings. isn't impossible. |
#17
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On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:41:09 -0400, Kevin Brooks wrote:
If you think that such facilities can only be built in granite, think again. I'd be very surprised if Mount Weather in Virginia, one of the formerly-secret (along with Raven Rock in Maryland and the congrssional facility at White Hot Springs (IIRC) in West Virginia) emergency relocation sites, was built in anything other than that Karst limestone you ridiculed earlier. Mount Weather and Raven Rock are both tunnel complexes. Dunno about Mount Weather or the Congressional Continuity of Government site located under the Greenbriar resort in Sulphur Springs, West Virginia, but Raven Rock (Site R) is dug into part of the Catoctin anticline (the site is actually in Pennsylvania, just north of the Maryland border.) The Catoctin anticline is composed of late Precambrian basalt lava flows that later metamorphosed into the characteristic Catoctin "greenstone" (metabasalt), which is considerably harder than limestone. ljd |
#18
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In article , "Keith Willshaw"
wrote: "Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... In article , "Keith Willshaw" wrote: "Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... In article , (Al Dykes) wrote: Some people might do well to look at the geology of Syria. The flatter parts are generally sandstone or an equivalent crumbly rock that won't support tunneling much deeper than irrigation. A start was once made on a Damascus subway, but apparently abandoned because every tunnel would have to be steel- or concrete-lined. As is every tunnel on the London Underground, except for some of the older tunnels were cast iron segments or brick linings are used. The more mountainous areas are karst, which does tend to have natural caves, but doesn't lend itself enormously to tunneling. Serious deep excavations, like Cheyenne Mountain, are granite or similar hard rock. You may wish to think again London is built on clay, I guess that means you think they couldnt possibly build the London Underground No, I said _serious_ tunneling. Cheyenne Mountain is a good example of a serious tunneling excavation (and other system) intended to withstand near misses of nuclear weapons, or deep-penetrating PGMs with conventional warheads. I rather think that the hundreds of miles of tunnels that make up the London Underground system are really quite serious. So were the Cabinet war rooms and the underground military HQ in London and Northwood. All built under clay When were they built? Were nuclear weapons or penetrating PGMs design consideration? I certainly agree they are stable under normal conditions, and, for that matter, the German bombing of WWII. I'm not as convinced that 617 Squadron, using the Tallboy, couldn't have broached them, much less if more modern weapons were used. And won't have much effect on a modern penetrating or high blast weapon. It wasnt suggested it would, however a 100ft of clay or sandstone, especially if properly reinforces is rather difficult to penetrate using conventional weapons. The interim "bunker buster" rigged from old artillery barrels penetrated over 100 feet of hardened clay (caliche) in the US trials before deployment. They never did dig it out. Cheyenne Mountain isn't only granite, it's granite in a matrix of steel stabilizing bolts. Zhiguli is presumably comparable. I think the Syrians know about steel and concrete too. I didn't say steel and concrete, but steel and granite. Cheyenne Mountain was selected, in part, because it is a mountain, and it was possible to tunnel in from the side. Even so, there was a significant amount of construction (and excavated rock and soil) that would have been visible in overhead imagery. I find it hard to believe that Syria could have (1) found an appropriate granite mountain and (2) hidden from satellites the evidence of building a major shelter. What is plausible is that the Syrians might have improved some of the karst caves, which would be much more hardened than the sandstone through which the qanats are built. Improved karst, however, isn't the same as reinforced granite. I will grant that you can superharden something of the size of an ICBM silo with steel and concrete, although some of the techniques need research. Again, the construction is difficult to hide from overheads--it is much more distinctive than a truck of mystery materials. In the middle east the techniques for building extensive underground tunnels have been know since antiquity. The network of irrigation tunnels in Iran are known as the qanat and in Arabia they call them the falaj. Exactly. The qanats are what I'm describing in the Syrian lowlands. They don't and can't go deeply enough to withstand modern bombing. But tunnels built using modern techniques can and do. If the Syrians did build such a complex, I suspect we would know about it. We tracked their attempts to build a subway system, which were abandoned. |
#19
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#20
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"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:41:09 -0400, Kevin Brooks wrote: If you think that such facilities can only be built in granite, think again. I'd be very surprised if Mount Weather in Virginia, one of the formerly-secret (along with Raven Rock in Maryland and the congrssional facility at White Hot Springs (IIRC) in West Virginia) emergency relocation sites, was built in anything other than that Karst limestone you ridiculed earlier. Mount Weather and Raven Rock are both tunnel complexes. Dunno about Mount Weather or the Congressional Continuity of Government site located under the Greenbriar resort in Sulphur Springs, West Virginia, but Raven Rock (Site R) is dug into part of the Catoctin anticline (the site is actually in Pennsylvania, just north of the Maryland border.) The Catoctin anticline is composed of late Precambrian basalt lava flows that later metamorphosed into the characteristic Catoctin "greenstone" (metabasalt), which is considerably harder than limestone. And let me make clear I wasn't saying it had to be granite specifically, but other hard rock. Greenbriar is under a lawn--it was basically just a fallout shelter. Mount Pony (former Federal Reserve emergency storage site, and reportedly used to also provide some alternate command space) , just down the road from where I live, has recently been largely dug up (for some unknown reason), and I did not see much evidence of largescale rock removal to get the job done. As far as I can tell from gandering at a geological map, Mount Weather lays west of the Blue Ridge in what is termed as the "Valley and Ridge" geology of Virginia--predominantly limestone, and typically Karst (which might explain the mentions in various Mount Weather sites of supporting underground "ponds"). And the Greenbriar facility is neither "under the lawn" (it is under the West Virginia Wing extension built onto the hotel, and was built while the new wing was being added); nor was it necessarily "basically just a fallout shelter" --top cover for the entrance tunnel is listed as being some three feet of concrete topped by a varyingdepth of soil ranging from 25 feet to a maximum of 100 feet. Brooks |
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