Busted ADIZ - What Now?

"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
let you know what the deal is.


You've spoken to AOPA, to a lawyer, and to the FAA and seem to be dealing
with this in a honest, straightforward manner. No admonishment from me,
quite the contrary, I appreciate your telling of your story as it is
valuable information to all of us as to how the system works in real life.

Peter

Scott,

Thanks for relating your experience. Please inform us of the
final outcome.

Joe Schneider
Cherokee 8437R

"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to
shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've
all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an
attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me
what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still
don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the
incident,
will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but
it
*will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.

Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per
year.
I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per
hour
out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided
me
with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt
that
I'll have any problems going this one alone.

Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses
to my
Usenet posting.

I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and
provided
with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his
voice
mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter
proposing
a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving.
It
said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd
accepted
the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.

I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These
people
were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who
answered
the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter?
Who
signed it?

When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK,
that's
over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern
Region.
Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She
was
not familiar with the name I gave.

"Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
routed my call after I thanked her.

The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA
is
so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if
you're
a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me
that in
writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?

"Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with
them.
But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with,
right?
Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of
these
things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't
drop
the penalty but they'll cut it in half."

Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the
lawyer
to call back.

The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post
office
recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a
relief.

He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to
me,
it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use
anything
you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely
*not*
the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about
supporting
multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.

Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector
and
he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What
did
you file in your initial report?"

I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But
an
informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the
record."
I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives
of
others by subjecting myself to possible military action.

So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made
a
mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless.
I
was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for
a
second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!

I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me
for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well
then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't
hurt to
let you know what the deal is.

What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back
up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:07:20 GMT, Scott Lowrey
wrote:

Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

snipped a story that could happen to any of us.....

All I can say is that it is darn refreshing to hear someone take
responsibility for their mistakes instead of blaming everyone within
50 miles of them. Congratulations for being a man and I hope it works
out for you with a minimum penalty.

Rich Russell

If I were you, I would see if sending your certificate in today would start
the clock running on the 30 days. If you are truly not flying very much
then 30 days is no big deal.

Mike
MU-2


"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the incident,
will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but it
*will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.

Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per year.
I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per hour
out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided me
with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt that
I'll have any problems going this one alone.

Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses to my
Usenet posting.

I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and provided
with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his voice
mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter proposing
a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving. It
said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd accepted
the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.

I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These people
were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who answered
the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter? Who
signed it?

When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK, that's
over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern Region.
Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She was
not familiar with the name I gave.

"Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
routed my call after I thanked her.

The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA is
so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if you're
a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me that in
writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?

"Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with them.
But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with, right?
Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of these
things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't drop
the penalty but they'll cut it in half."

Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the lawyer
to call back.

The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post office
recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a relief.

He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to me,
it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use anything
you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely *not*
the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about supporting
multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.

Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector and
he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What did
you file in your initial report?"

I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But an
informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the record."
I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives of
others by subjecting myself to possible military action.

So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made a
mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless. I
was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for a
second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!

I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
let you know what the deal is.

What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:07:20 GMT, Scott Lowrey
wrote:

Thanks, everyone, for responding


Glad to hear you're "making progress," and better yet that you found
out you still want to fly!

Good luck with the final outcome.

z

"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut up
and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

SNIP


What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott

Scott,

Good luck and I hope your honesty gets rewarded.

Nice to see someone who can step up, fess up and move on.

Please let us know how things progress.

Regards,

Jay Beckman
Student Pilot - KCHD
43.8 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up!