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Power Flarm with ADS-B out?



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 9th 17, 02:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Benjamin
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

Is anyone aware of any near term plans for Power Flarm with an ADS-B out solution?

I fly airspace fairly congested with light GA aircraft, and would really like that powered traffic to be able to see me as well as me seeing them.

With most US powered aircraft being required to have ADS-B in 2020, addition of ADS-B out seems a logical evolution for Power Flarm.
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  #2  
Old May 9th 17, 03:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 8:51:36 PM UTC-5, Dave Benjamin wrote:
Is anyone aware of any near term plans for Power Flarm with an ADS-B out solution?

I fly airspace fairly congested with light GA aircraft, and would really like that powered traffic to be able to see me as well as me seeing them.

With most US powered aircraft being required to have ADS-B in 2020, addition of ADS-B out seems a logical evolution for Power Flarm.


ADS-B out only works with a suitable Mode S transponder and a valid GPS source. PFlarm will never be a platform for doing that.
  #3  
Old May 11th 17, 11:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

Meanwhile on the other side of the ocean, EASA is ahead of FAA.

http://www.air-
avionics.com/air/index.php/en/products/collision-avoidance/trx-
1500-the-flexible-collision-avoidance-system


  #4  
Old May 12th 17, 01:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
C-FFKQ (42)
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

On Thursday, 11 May 2017 19:00:09 UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
Meanwhile on the other side of the ocean, EASA is ahead of FAA.

http://www.air-
avionics.com/air/index.php/en/products/collision-avoidance/trx-
1500-the-flexible-collision-avoidance-system


Sorry, George...
By my reading, this device is like PowerFlarm: it has Flarm, PCAS and ADSB-IN.
There does not appear to be ADSB-OUT.
  #5  
Old May 12th 17, 04:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 6:51:36 PM UTC-7, Dave Benjamin wrote:
Is anyone aware of any near term plans for Power Flarm with an ADS-B out solution?

I fly airspace fairly congested with light GA aircraft, and would really like that powered traffic to be able to see me as well as me seeing them.

With most US powered aircraft being required to have ADS-B in 2020, addition of ADS-B out seems a logical evolution for Power Flarm.


There has been a lots of stuff discussed on r.a.s in the past about using PowerFLARM with 1090ES Out system from other vendors. many existing threads on the issues involved, issues with certified GPS costs, how TABS/TSO-C199 might change that (but can't today in certified aircraft etc.). And lots of past discussion about why the GPS unit inside a PowerFLARM can't be used for ADS-B Out to meet 2020 requirements and also does not meet TABS requirements, e.g. is not TSO-C199 approved or claimed to "meet requirements of"... and so on... I'm not going to rehash all that again. If you want specific advice you need to tell us what type of glider and if it's certified or experimental.

If the question is should FLARM develop a Mode S/1090ES Out product? That seems like an illogical market for FLARM to pursue--FLARM is a small design company, not a certified avionics manufacturer. They very smarty pioneered great technology using unregulated spectrum. They have nothing technically to add to pure ADS-B Out than any other vendor, many of who are actually set up to be able to manufacture certified products. And their partner manufacturer AirAvionics for example already sell 1090ES Out equipment in Europe. FLARM is unlikely to compete with their major partners like that. If you want to see AirAvionic sell their existing 1090ES Out solution in the USA you should check with them. But already equivalent or lower-cost 1090ES Out solutions exist in the USA market from vendors with significant presence here already.

For glider uses in the USA who want ADS-B Out the leading vendors you should be looking at is Trig at least for the Mode-S 1090ES out part... and then follow their advice on the GPS source. They are here today with products and support. For certified aircraft you are still screwed on GPS source costs, who knows, maybe one day there will be light at the end of the tunnel with non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out even in certified aircraft.

PowerFLARM has no market in the power aircraft market in the USA, the lack of support for ADS-R and TIS-B reception makes PowerFLARM a non-starter. If the USA GA market was important to them they would have addressed that. The benefit of the wonderful FLARM technology overweighs that limitations to glider users, it won't for typical power aircraft users.
  #6  
Old May 12th 17, 04:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 6:51:36 PM UTC-7, Dave Benjamin wrote:
Is anyone aware of any near term plans for Power Flarm with an ADS-B out solution?

I fly airspace fairly congested with light GA aircraft, and would really like that powered traffic to be able to see me as well as me seeing them.

With most US powered aircraft being required to have ADS-B in 2020, addition of ADS-B out seems a logical evolution for Power Flarm.


Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
  #7  
Old May 12th 17, 05:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?


Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?


Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden. Yes , transponder.

Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.
  #8  
Old May 12th 17, 09:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:06:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?


Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden. Yes , transponder.

Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.


First thanks for equipping with a transponder in the Reno area.

Sorry I should have also asked what transponder you have. If you have say a Trig TT-22 then the remaining cost is largely the suitable GPS receiver (e..g. the Trig TN70 for ~$2k plus install costs).

If you voluntarily install ADS-B out in your *certified* glider you are required to meet the performance requirements of the 2020 Mandate which in practice today means a TSO-C145c GPS like the TN70. And just do whatever the transponder manufacturer says and ideally follow an existing STC documentation as closely as possible.

But its not clear how useful this will actually be for different usage scenarios. There are just so many unknowns here. You might want to do some informal survey of what ADS-B Out and In capabilities local GA aircraft have and try to get a feel for local ADS-R and TIS-B coverage.

Are the GA aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out? (so they have a chance of being a ADS-R and TIS-B client) and are they equipped with ADS-B In and on what link layers? I assume in the high desert/mountainous areas of Nevada many will be equipping with ADS-B Out, and hopefully mostly on 1090ES Out... but it would be intersting to know.

And hopefully GA users have gotten the message and are only buying dual link receivers.

If you are within ADS-B and SSR coverage then other aircraft properly equipped with ADS-B Out *and* ADS-B In will see your transponder equipped glider via TIS-B. Not so useful for close-flying gliders but more useful for GA aircraft to see gliders with. Likely not useful say close to the pattern area at Minden airport because the Reno located SSR radar can't see low down the valley. (And TIS-B requires the ADS-B Out system in the client aircraft to be properly set up to transmit the correct capability codes that describe the aircraft's ADS-B In capabilities. So remind GA pilots using portable ADS-B In systems to check if their ADS-B Out system is properly configured to advertise their correct ADS-B In capability).

If within SSR coverage and the GA aircraft is communicating with ATC then that that helps avoid you with just a transponder.

If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a 1090ES or dual-link ADS-B receiver they'll see you directly.

If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a UAT receiver and no ADS-B Out then it won't reliably see you. It may see ADS-R messages about your aircraft transmitted for other client aircraft. A potentially confusing/dangerous situation.

If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has properly configured ADS-B Out (UAT or 1090ES) and UAT-In and is within ADS-B ground coverage then it will see your aircraft via ADS-R.

So maybe lots of things to look at with the GA pilots in the area. With all that complexity and costs and hassles (including installation costs and increased power-consumption) it may be that the marginal gain of installing ADS-B Out is not worth it. OTOH I would not be flying in that area at all without a transponder for the airlines and fast jets and general help it gives via ATC.

There may be some hope about STC based approval for non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out install in certified aircraft, if that happened then maybe the GPS part of the cost of an install might go from the current ~$2k to say ~$500 or so. You'll still have some install costs and hassle of finding an A&P who know what they are doing to do this properly. So while it will be nicer for component costs to keep falling, I also kinda feel that if somebody *really* wants ADS-B Out in a glider today then they should probably not hold out hoping for further large decreases in cost. Just write that check and get going. And as more folks do that we should all get a better feel on real world usefulness. For non-certified gliders they can already use lower-cost GPS sources (like the Trig TN-72). This differential costs between installation in certified and non-certified gliders is just frustratingly stupid bureaucracy helping getting in the way of ADS-B adoption.





  #9  
Old May 13th 17, 08:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

ADSB-out, ADSB-in, certified, uncertified, experimental, GA, gliders, properly equipped, portable, client, codes, mode C, TSO, TSO-C145c, TN70, TN72, ADS-R, TIS-B, UAT, 1090ES, SSR areas, dual-link..... Thank you for your help, FAA.
  #10  
Old May 13th 17, 07:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Power Flarm with ADS-B out?

Pretty good summary of the problem :-(
 




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