Report asks Pentagon to justify F/A-22

rnf2 wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:05:53 -0800, Henry J Cobb wrote:
So can anybody come up with anything more probable where the F/A-22s are
even a tiny bit relevant?

Indonesia trying to take soem of Australias land for their population
explosions? thats IIRC is within F-22 range of Okinawa/Guam and you'd
probably have the aussies damn glad to put them up in a base somewhere
around.

And the Super Hornets can beat the entire Indonesia air force, no
Raptors needed.

-HJC

"Henry J Cobb" wrote in message
...
Kevin Brooks wrote:
"Henry J Cobb" wrote in message
...
I like the F-35, but I can't see the point of spending 11.7 billion
dollars to add the "A" to F/A-22.

But we are not spending $11.7 billion to add the "A".

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04391.pdf

Read the report.

LOL! I did. And you know what? As usual, you are trying to make sources say
something to suit your needs instead of actually digesting what they have to
say. That $11 billion is for *all* F/A-22 spiral development, including
enhancing the air-to-air capabilities, enhancing it as an ISR platform, etc
(and care to guess how much we have spent on continued RDT&E on other
systems like the F-16, F-15, etc., over their lifetimes?). Not to "add the
"A"". Geeze Henry, why don't you READ the crap you are using before you cram
that other foot in your mouth? And it is interesting how quickly you dropped
that whole "Okinawa requires a permission slip and is too far away" BS...you
figure if you snip it away it just disappears, huh?

Unfortunately this is about par for your pronouncements--short on reasoning,
short on conclusions, and bolstered by inappropriate supporting evidence. No
wonder the folks in SMN regularly unload a broadside at you when you uncloak
and make similar utterances.

Brooks


-HJC

"Henry J Cobb" wrote in message
...
rnf2 wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:05:53 -0800, Henry J Cobb wrote:
So can anybody come up with anything more probable where the F/A-22s are
even a tiny bit relevant?

Indonesia trying to take soem of Australias land for their population
explosions? thats IIRC is within F-22 range of Okinawa/Guam and you'd
probably have the aussies damn glad to put them up in a base somewhere
around.

And the Super Hornets can beat the entire Indonesia air force, no
Raptors needed.

That would be the Indonesia that has just contracted to buy its first lot of
the very same aircraft that in PLAAF or Russian hands you were claiming were
a viable threat that would justify purchase of the F/A-22? Odd how your
parameters seem to be ever-changing, Henry.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040301183100.oj5mf3an.html

Brooks



-HJC

Kevin Brooks wrote:
That would be the Indonesia that has just contracted to buy its first lot of
the very same aircraft that in PLAAF or Russian hands you were claiming were
a viable threat that would justify purchase of the F/A-22? Odd how your
parameters seem to be ever-changing, Henry.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040301183100.oj5mf3an.html

Would they maintain or use them as well?

-HJC

On 16 Mar 2004 11:09:24 -0800, (Jeb Hoge) wrote:

Henry J Cobb wrote in message ...
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/8197864.htm
Noting that development costs have increased by 127 percent over 1986
estimates, GAO officials called on the Department of Defense to
"complete a new business case that determines the continued need for
the F/A-22." The White House Office of Management and Budget has made
a similar request to determine if the F/A-22 is "still relevant."

I don't see how they can be relevant.

There's only two countries with advanced aircraft who might be involved
in a conflict with the United States and so justify the cost of the F/A-22s.
So can anybody come up with anything more probable where the F/A-22s are
even a tiny bit relevant?

I guess the relevance will come into sharp focus after a few more
F-15s disintegrate from airframe weakening due to 15-20 years of use.
The relevance is, what else is there that can command the air
dominance role?


Errr. one tiny small point do you know how many F15/F16's will the 200
odd F-22 replace?, the Raptor looks very good on paper, but it can't
be everywhere at once, IIRC theres 400 F-15s and 1200 F-16s air
superiority fighters that were to be replaced by 800 F-22's.

Can you tell me at what point does one say 'thats far too few to
matter' (Remember Germany 1944 - ME 262).

If the F-22 is that good why not just buy one?, Ok that patently a
stupid idea, how about 10 or 50 or 200, at what point does it become
worth the cost?.

You might have to weight the possible purchase of 1000 to 1600 new
F15's rather than 200 F-22's, what force would you rather have?.

All I'm asking is for a number at which the F-22 force is not worth
the $80B cost, and what alternative force could you have purchased??.

(you could have purchased well over 1000 Eurofighter Typhoons for
example)


Good luck!!!


John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:13:53 -0800, Henry J Cobb wrote:

Kevin Brooks wrote:
That would be the Indonesia that has just contracted to buy its first lot of
the very same aircraft that in PLAAF or Russian hands you were claiming were
a viable threat that would justify purchase of the F/A-22? Odd how your
parameters seem to be ever-changing, Henry.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040301183100.oj5mf3an.html

Would they maintain or use them as well?

-HJC

probably better. they have a better economy than the russians at the
moment. and they train reasonably well.

besides which they are gonna get a LOT more than the aussies are gonna
get S-hornets... and even those S-hornets seem to be in doubt, the
Aust govts cut the numbers to be aquired at least once that I have
heard of.

"D. Strang" wrote in message
news:wdM5c.25310$m4.14673@okepread03...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote

... until recently I too
was of the opinion that the F/A-22 would have to be a non-player, until
that
is I noticed that Okinawa, where we *already* have basing rights, is
within
range for the F/A-22. Guess you missed that one, huh?

Okinawa is history. I'd say in less than 10 years, we will be gone. The
giant
F-16 clone (F-2 ??) will probably be based there with nationals.

Besides, the ZZ on the tail was won through cowardice during the Korean
war.
There hasn't been a General yet that would let the Wing change the
letters.

I suppose you have a cite for this cowardice?

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:44:53 -0800, Henry J Cobb wrote:

Use of Okinawa requires the permission of the Japanese government, which
might not want to get involved in a shooting war with the Chinese.

We are not going to get into a shooting war with the Chinese. That is
the one war that cannot be fought, and fortunately the Chinese seem to
realize it as well as we do. Every year that goes by makes a war even
more improbable.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"rnf2" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:13:53 -0800, Henry J Cobb wrote:

Kevin Brooks wrote:
That would be the Indonesia that has just contracted to buy its first
lot of
the very same aircraft that in PLAAF or Russian hands you were claiming
were
a viable threat that would justify purchase of the F/A-22? Odd how your
parameters seem to be ever-changing, Henry.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040301183100.oj5mf3an.html

Would they maintain or use them as well?

-HJC

probably better. they have a better economy than the russians at the
moment. and they train reasonably well.

besides which they are gonna get a LOT more than the aussies are gonna
get S-hornets... and even those S-hornets seem to be in doubt, the
Aust govts cut the numbers to be aquired at least once that I have
heard of.

Australia has never indicated a buy of Superhornets, let alone a number.

AIR6000 is still running to select the F/A-18 replacement, Aust is a partner
in the F-35 program so that is probably the frontrunner.

"rnf2" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:05:53 -0800, Henry J Cobb wrote:


So can anybody come up with anything more probable where the F/A-22s are
even a tiny bit relevant?

-HJC


Indonesia trying to take soem of Australias land for their population
explosions? thats IIRC is within F-22 range of Okinawa/Guam and you'd
probably have the aussies damn glad to put them up in a base somewhere
around.

Have you ever had a look at the Indonesians ability to deliver troops?

The TNI is set up mostly to fight Indonesians.