What do you do in the real world?

In article ,
Ron Garret wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route.

Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me
for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not
easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the
highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the
area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring
out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to
the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your
destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is
not such an easy thing to do in flight.

rg

"Ron Garret" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Ron Garret wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route.

Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me
for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not
easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the
highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the
area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring
out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to
the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your
destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is
not such an easy thing to do in flight.


Aren't the Grid MORAs shown on your enroute charts?
You said you are /G equipped, and thus know where you are.

In article ,
"John R. Copeland" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ron Garret wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route.

Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me
for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not
easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the
highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the
area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring
out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to
the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your
destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is
not such an easy thing to do in flight.


Aren't the Grid MORAs shown on your enroute charts?
You said you are /G equipped, and thus know where you are.

Heh, you know, I had forgotten all about those. I've never had occasion
to use them until now.

rg

Ron,

"The minimum IFR altitude is not
easily determined."


Yes, but don't the regs elsewhere say that on off-airway routings, the
pilot is responsible for it?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ron Garret wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route.

Not so. If you're off an airway, then the off-route obstacle
clearance altitude (OROCA) applies, and is printed on the LO charts.

The first 250 miles or so are over pretty flat terrain. It is only
shortly before you get to the destination that the mountains begin.

Lost comm minimum altitudes apply per segment, not per leg. So in
this case, you would need to climb when you enter the grid square
containing tall rocks.

- FChE

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:31:00 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route. The first 250 miles or so are over pretty flat
terrain. It is only shortly before you get to the destination that the
mountains begin.

Of course there is.

And you can obtain it from a sectional, an enroute chart, or (at least in
my case) from my GPS.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Garret wrote:
Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was going
to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and indeed, near
Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS, LYNXX8 arrival,
followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm
before they changed my routing? By the book I should have continued to
fly my clearance, which would have run me into a mountain around GMN, so
that's probably not the right answer. Viable possibilities seem to
include:

1. Divert (or climb) just enough to avoid the terrain around GMN, fly
to VNY, and commence an approach from there.

2. As above, but vector myself for the ILS before reaching VNY.

3&4 - as above but fly to LHS and the LYNXX8 arrival.

5. Divert to the nearest airport with an IAP.

My aircraft is /G so I know pretty much exactly where I am at all times.

rg

References:

LYNXX8 arrival:
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../00067LYNXX.PD
F

ILS RWY 16R approach:
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../00552I16R.PDF

If you don't know you shouldn;t be filing IFR. Period. You can get
someone (including yourself killed.)

Tim writes:

If you don't know you shouldn;t be filing IFR. Period. You can get
someone (including yourself killed.)

If you know, you should explain the answer here. If you don't, why bother
with the melodramatic lecture?

I'll assume that you don't know, and apparently nobody else here knows and
nobody can be bothered to look it up.

This situation is explicitly covered by FAR 91.185 in the United States, which
reads as follows:

==
Part 91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B--Flight Rules
Instrument Flight Rules

Sec. 91.185

IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way
radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the
rules of this section.

(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR
conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the
flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.

(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if paragraph
(b) of this section cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the
flight according to the following:

(1) Route.
(i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of
radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector
clearance;
(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has
advised may be expected in a further clearance; or
(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has
advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed
in the flight plan.

(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels
for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance
received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight
level as prescribed in Sec. 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in
a further clearance.

(3) Leave clearance limit.
(i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins,
commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to
the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or
if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated
time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC)
estimated time en route.
(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins,
leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if
one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival
over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach
begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as
possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the
filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
==

So the (partial) answer is: Continue with the assigned heading, and maintain
altitude as in (c)(2) above. Part (c)(2)(ii) should keep you above terrain
(FAR 91.177). This still leaves some unanswered questions, though. If you
are given a heading without a fix, and the heading does not intercept your
flight plan or any approach or any expected routing, where do you go? In VMC
you are clearly expected to go VFR and land. In IMC, what do you do?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Tim writes:


If you don't know you shouldn;t be filing IFR. Period. You can get
someone (including yourself killed.)


If you know, you should explain the answer here. If you don't, why bother
with the melodramatic lecture?

I'll assume that you don't know, and apparently nobody else here knows and
nobody can be bothered to look it up.

This situation is explicitly covered by FAR 91.185 in the United States, which
reads as follows:

snip

I know the answer. My point is that a pilot should not get anywhere
near an IFR flight plan if he/she doesn't know the answer to that
question. I am not being melodramatic. It can get you killed. You
NEED to know that stuff.


The fact that the person did not even look it up and instead came to a
newsgroup for an answer is also a problem.

Your assumption tht those who don't post the answer don't know the
answer is ridiculous.

Spoon feeding pilots who are dangerous and ignorant is a sure way to
disaster.

In your little world of games, icing, lost comms, etc don't happen, and
when they do no one dies. In the real world pilots like these can kill
themselves and others. I don't want them flying around when I am up
there flying around.

Tim writes:

I know the answer. My point is that a pilot should not get anywhere
near an IFR flight plan if he/she doesn't know the answer to that
question. I am not being melodramatic. It can get you killed. You
NEED to know that stuff.

So what is the answer?

The fact that the person did not even look it up and instead came to a
newsgroup for an answer is also a problem.

Where would he look it up?

Your assumption tht those who don't post the answer don't know the
answer is ridiculous.

It's actually very logical. People who have the answer are usually more than
willing to give it. Those who don't are usually eager to find a way to
distract attention from their failure to provide an answer. And, of course,
some people just make things up.

Spoon feeding pilots who are dangerous and ignorant is a sure way to
disaster.

So when I don't look something up, it's bad; and when I do look something up,
it's bad. Do you see a problem here?

In your little world of games, icing, lost comms, etc don't happen, and
when they do no one dies. In the real world pilots like these can kill
themselves and others. I don't want them flying around when I am up
there flying around.

Since you don't know what to do in this situation, I suppose yours would be
the first NTSB report.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.