visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing

cavelamb wrote:

Have you ever seen the top surface of a fabric covered wing?

The skin does not bulge upwards.

Not usually anyway.

I find your tone impertinent.

Brian W

Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
brian whatcott wrote:

Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
brian whatcott wrote:

Alan Baker wrote:

Interesting comment: what would YOU call it when the fabric on the upper
wing surface wants to pull away from the ribs?
Air pressure from inside the wing pushing up on it more than the air
above is pushing down...

Let me take a wild guess he you did physics for an uundergraduate
degree. Is that right?

Brian W
No. But it doesn't matter.

If the fabric is moving upward, it can only be because there is more
pressure on its bottom surface than there is on its top surface.

It seems that you are uncomfortable with the entire concept of suction.
For example, how do you suppose suction cups work?

The pressure outside the cup keeps it in place.

Or how about a suction pump that happens to be limited to a 30 ft lift?

Because a vacuum cannot do any actual pulling, you can only lift water
as far as the pressure allows, right.

Well duh, it's also atmospheric pressure that enables suction pumps and
suction cups etc., etc. Yes indeed , but it's an academic issue at
the junior high level, isn't it?

Yup.

OK you certainly cut the cookie at Junior High.
Now can we go back to using terms like suction the way 99.99% of the
technical and scientific population understands it? :-)

Brian W

Alan Baker wrote:

Nope.

I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no*
lifting force.

None.

Zero.

In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time.



....and you are making the point that when you are breathing in, you are
not SUCKING air at all. It's atmospheric pressure on your chest that
inspires the air. Wow! Who would have guessed? :-)

Brian W

In article ,
brian whatcott wrote:

Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
brian whatcott wrote:

Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
brian whatcott wrote:

Alan Baker wrote:

Interesting comment: what would YOU call it when the fabric on the
upper
wing surface wants to pull away from the ribs?
Air pressure from inside the wing pushing up on it more than the air
above is pushing down...

Let me take a wild guess he you did physics for an uundergraduate
degree. Is that right?

Brian W
No. But it doesn't matter.

If the fabric is moving upward, it can only be because there is more
pressure on its bottom surface than there is on its top surface.

It seems that you are uncomfortable with the entire concept of suction.
For example, how do you suppose suction cups work?

The pressure outside the cup keeps it in place.

Or how about a suction pump that happens to be limited to a 30 ft lift?

Because a vacuum cannot do any actual pulling, you can only lift water
as far as the pressure allows, right.

Well duh, it's also atmospheric pressure that enables suction pumps and
suction cups etc., etc. Yes indeed , but it's an academic issue at
the junior high level, isn't it?

Yup.

OK you certainly cut the cookie at Junior High.
Now can we go back to using terms like suction the way 99.99% of the
technical and scientific population understands it? :-)

Brian W

No one understands "suction" to actually mean a pulling force. Not since
they tried to pump water out of mines and discovered that they could
only "pull" it a certain number of feet, but no further.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

On Nov 29, 11:19*pm, Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,





*cavelamb wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
*"Morgans" wrote:

"Alan Baker" wrote
Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act in
any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong.
I see. *You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an
observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening around
it.

Point made.

Nope.

I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no*
lifting force.

None.

Zero.

In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time.

Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree.

Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing
experience anything but a downward force.



In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure.
('splain why?)

Bernoulli.



But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the wing,
the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it?

Which I never disagreed with.

But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing
anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When I fly my Cheerokee I can detect a slight bulge in the upper
skin. For what it's worth.

Ed

In article
,
et wrote:

On Nov 29, 11:19*pm, Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,





*cavelamb wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
*"Morgans" wrote:

"Alan Baker" wrote
Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act
in
any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong.
I see. *You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an
observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening
around
it.

Point made.

Nope.

I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no*
lifting force.

None.

Zero.

In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time.

Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree.

Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing
experience anything but a downward force.



In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure.
('splain why?)

Bernoulli.



But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the
wing,
the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it?

Which I never disagreed with.

But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing
anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

When I fly my Cheerokee I can detect a slight bulge in the upper
skin. For what it's worth.

Ed

Great. Do you think that is caused by the air above the skin pulling on
it?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

Alan Baker wrote:
No one understands "suction" to actually mean a pulling force.


Remember folks: no more talk of sucking soda through a straw!
Just suck it up!

Brian W :-)

On Nov 30, 8:53*am, Alan Baker wrote:
In article
,





*et wrote:
On Nov 29, 11:19*pm, Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,

*cavelamb wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
*"Morgans" wrote:

"Alan Baker" wrote
Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act
in
any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong.
I see. *You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an
observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening
around
it.

Point made.

Nope.

I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no*
lifting force.

None.

Zero.

In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time.

Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree.

Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing
experience anything but a downward force.

In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure.
('splain why?)

Bernoulli.

But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the
wing,
the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it?

Which I never disagreed with.

But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing
anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

When I fly my Cheerokee I can detect a slight bulge in the upper
skin. * For what it's worth.

Ed

Great. Do you think that is caused by the air above the skin pulling on
it?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Has to be a pressure differental I would think.

Ed

In article
,
et wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:53*am, Alan Baker wrote:
In article
,





*et wrote:
On Nov 29, 11:19*pm, Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,

*cavelamb wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
*"Morgans" wrote:

"Alan Baker" wrote
Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can
act
in
any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong.
I see. *You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an
observation at one point only, without reguard to what is
happening
around
it.

Point made.

Nope.

I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely
*no*
lifting force.

None.

Zero.

In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time.

Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree.

Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing
experience anything but a downward force.

In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure.
('splain why?)

Bernoulli.

But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of
the
wing,
the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it?

Which I never disagreed with.

But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing
anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

When I fly my Cheerokee I can detect a slight bulge in the upper
skin. * For what it's worth.

Ed

Great. Do you think that is caused by the air above the skin pulling on
it?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Has to be a pressure differental I would think.

Ed

Then you understand reality.

:-)

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

In article ,
brian whatcott wrote:

Alan Baker wrote:
No one understands "suction" to actually mean a pulling force.


Remember folks: no more talk of sucking soda through a straw!
Just suck it up!

Brian W :-)

Talk about it all you want...

....just don't pretend that there is a force acting upward on the surface
of the liquid inside the straw...

....because you'll be wrong.

:-)

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg