How long before /G required for IFR?

Just read in aopa weekly mail today that the FAA is considering shutting
down the BDL (Bradley, Hartford CT) and PVD (Providence RI) VORs.

These are not exactly podunk navaids. Both are located at Class C fields
with substantial airline traffic (not just RJs either) and they support a
decent number of airways and approaches. To be fair, VORs are not exactly in
short supply in the Northeast, so this won't have a devastating effect,
though it will make outages more critical.

I fly a 172N and with 2 NAV/COMs, ADF, and an M1 Loran I can get around this
part of the country pretty well. Other than getting DME capability there
hasn't been a pressing reason to add an IFR GPS to a $40,000 plane. But, how
much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement? Already when I
fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions ("proceed direct
foobar") that require GPS, so I suppose us non-golf folks are becoming a
rare species. How long before we're extinct?

Best,
-cwk.

But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement?

IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15.

Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions
("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS

Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or
you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only.
A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule
that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise
is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation -
NOT an advisory circular or AIM).

Since almost everyone who flies IFR has at least a handheld GPS, why
wouldn't ATC take advantage of this?

The real issue is when will approach GPS become a necessity pracitcal
necessity? I suspect that as VOR's and NDB's are decomissioned, more
and more airports will have nothing but GPS. The big airports will
always have ILS, and those will become our only legal alternates, but
for GA IFR flying, GPS will become a necessity.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...
But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement?

IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15.

Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions
("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS

Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or
you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only.
A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule
that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise
is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation -
NOT an advisory circular or AIM).

Since almost everyone who flies IFR has at least a handheld GPS, why
wouldn't ATC take advantage of this?

The real issue is when will approach GPS become a necessity pracitcal
necessity? I suspect that as VOR's and NDB's are decomissioned, more
and more airports will have nothing but GPS. The big airports will
always have ILS, and those will become our only legal alternates, but
for GA IFR flying, GPS will become a necessity.

Michael



Go fly in the plains states most the GA airports have GPS only IFR approach
and not many VOR's or many other nav aid's and the Vor's that are our in
Eastern MT And Western ND well if you have 1,500' cellings good luck picking
them up.

Michael wrote:

But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement?

IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15.

Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions
("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS

Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or
you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only.
A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule
that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise
is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation -
NOT an advisory circular or AIM).

Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters:

d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and
equipment are required:

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment
appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.

Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play "Frick
and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205 can
rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time.

wrote in message ...

Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters:

d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and
equipment are required:

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment
appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.


That states what equipment is required to be aboard, it does not restrict
the use of equipment not required to be aboard.



Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play
"Frick and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205
can
rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time.


Nobody suggested IFR operations without the required equipment.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

wrote in message ...

Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters:

d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and
equipment are required:

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment
appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.


That states what equipment is required to be aboard, it does not restrict
the use of equipment not required to be aboard.


Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play
"Frick and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205
can
rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time.


Nobody suggested IFR operations without the required equipment.

Are you suggesting Michael is a nobody? He stated:

A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule
that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise
is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation -
NOT an advisory circular or AIM).

This was stated in the context of a thread asking the somewhat rhetorical
question "Will /G become mandatory because of the movement to begin to shut
down VOR stations. Since Michael proposed using a portable GPS based on a
incorrect presmise that it has no placard that restricts it to VFR (not true in
substance in that the operating material suppied with the units state that), he
was clearing challenging operating in an area without adequate VOR stations for
non-radar IFR operations.

wrote in message ...

Are you suggesting Michael is a nobody? He stated:

A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule
that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise
is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation -
NOT an advisory circular or AIM).

This was stated in the context of a thread asking the somewhat rhetorical
question "Will /G become mandatory because of the movement to begin to
shut
down VOR stations. Since Michael proposed using a portable GPS based on a
incorrect presmise that it has no placard that restricts it to VFR (not
true in
substance in that the operating material suppied with the units state
that), he
was clearing challenging operating in an area without adequate VOR
stations for
non-radar IFR operations.


Nobody suggested IFR operations without the required equipment. A handheld
GPS does not require any placard to be affixed to the aircraft or any change
to a flight manual.

Tim, some of the other guys are playing around with you a little bit, but
I'll spell it out for you since I started it.

That reg says what you have to have onboard, but does not say what you will
or must use for navigation. IFR course tracking is a performance standard.
You must stay on the assigned course. How you do that is not specified or
regulated. What you use to fly that course is not specified or regulated.
Only that you fly that course, somehow.

So, you may use dead reckoning if you want to, radar vectors, celestial nav
(right!), or even (the crowd is on the edge of their seats in anticpation) a
tuna sandwich. The tuna sandwich must not, however, be placarded "VFR
only."

So, it is perfectly acceptable to look at your handheld GPS, see that it
says 237 degrees and 16 minutes to FUBAR, dead reckon by flying a 237
heading, and monitor your progress by reference to the handheld GPS.





wrote in message ...


Michael wrote:

But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement?

IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15.

Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions
("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS

Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or
you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only.
A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule
that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise
is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation -
NOT an advisory circular or AIM).

Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters:

d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and
equipment are required:

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment
appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.

Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play
"Frick
and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205 can
rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time.

"Dan Thompson" wrote in message
news

Tim, some of the other guys are playing around with you a little bit, but
I'll spell it out for you since I started it.

That reg says what you have to have onboard, but does not say what you
will or must use for navigation. IFR course tracking is a performance
standard. You must stay on the assigned course. How you do that is not
specified or regulated. What you use to fly that course is not specified
or regulated. Only that you fly that course, somehow.

So, you may use dead reckoning if you want to, radar vectors, celestial
nav (right!), or even (the crowd is on the edge of their seats in
anticpation) a tuna sandwich. The tuna sandwich must not, however, be
placarded "VFR only."

So, it is perfectly acceptable to look at your handheld GPS, see that it
says 237 degrees and 16 minutes to FUBAR,

There are GPS units that use minutes? I'd have thought them all to be
decimal format.



dead reckon by flying a 237 heading, and monitor your progress by
reference to the handheld GPS.


A good pilot will have an idea of the wind and correct for it.

Dan Thompson wrote:

Tim, some of the other guys are playing around with you a little bit, but
I'll spell it out for you since I started it.

Thanks for "helping" me. Have you ever heard of Class I and Class II
navigation? Those are ICAO terms that define what constitutes acceptable IFR
navigation in three different defined areas: domestic, oceanic, and remote land
mass. The United States is a signatory to that convention. The VOR system is
thus considered the primary means of IFR navigation. With limited exceptions,
IFR-certified GPS is not approved as primary means in a non-radar environment in
domestic airspace. That is changing, of course. But, it does not include VFR
GPS units, which do not qualify for IFR navigation.



That reg says what you have to have onboard, but does not say what you will
or must use for navigation. IFR course tracking is a performance standard.
You must stay on the assigned course. How you do that is not specified or
regulated. What you use to fly that course is not specified or regulated.
Only that you fly that course, somehow.

So, you may use dead reckoning if you want to, radar vectors, celestial nav
(right!), or even (the crowd is on the edge of their seats in anticpation) a
tuna sandwich. The tuna sandwich must not, however, be placarded "VFR
only."

So, it is perfectly acceptable to look at your handheld GPS, see that it
says 237 degrees and 16 minutes to FUBAR, dead reckon by flying a 237
heading, and monitor your progress by reference to the handheld GPS.

wrote in message ...


Michael wrote:

But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement?

IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15.

Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions
("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS

Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or
you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only.
A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule
that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise
is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation -
NOT an advisory circular or AIM).

Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters:

d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and
equipment are required:

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment
appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.

Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play
"Frick
and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205 can
rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time.