Cheap IFR GPS (M3 approach ?) advice

Hi all,

I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal. Being admittedly a bottom-feeder in this area, my choices
are basically limited to a used KLN89B, or the Northstar M3 Approach,
something like a $1500 setup total.

I don't think an avionics shop would touch anything like that for
under $1000 in labor (can't really blame them, its probably *harder*
to install than a latest generation unit), so I would be doing the
work myself with an IA's assistance & signoff (and some begging at the
FSDO). The M3 seems particularly attractive in this regard, because it
is so simple to install when you use the MD40-64 indicator with
built-in lights (no OBS, switching, etc). I also much prefer its
interface to the older generation King units. My only concern is the
near-term (say 3-5 years) availability of database updates for the M3,
has anyone heard any rumblings about this ? Jepp seems to offer the
Skybound II service for the Northstar right along the Garmins and
Kings, but not sure what their policies have historically been about
discontinuing updates.

I should mention my primary motivation for wanting the GPS is
flying direct without having to beg for fake vectors, and filing lower
on airways with high MEAs that have considerably lower MOCAs. The
approach capability is secondary, but since it just involves one extra
annunciator light (at least on the Northstar), I'd try to get it
certified. I do understand these first generation A1 units will be
throwaway when the precision guidance becomes reality, that's OK, I am
just looking for something I could put in cheap and use for the next
3-5 years.

Thanks for any comments, particularly from current M3 owners or
someone who has rolled their own (any brand). I think I have a pretty
good understanding about all the things required to have the rig
IFR-blessed (encoder interface, CDI, annunciators, COM interference
testing, AFM supplement, etc.), so I am looking for war stories about
the certification process itself when avionics shop wasn't involved.
The IA is willing as long as the stuff has some basic pedigree
paperwork (tagged, 337 sample, some continued airworthiness writeup).

Thanks!

Martin

I have installed many M3's and used to be the principal field service
training consultant for Northstar. Email me if you like. I can help.



On 21 Jan 2004 00:33:32 -0800, (Martin Kosina)
wrote:

Hi all,

I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal. Being admittedly a bottom-feeder in this area, my choices
are basically limited to a used KLN89B, or the Northstar M3 Approach,
something like a $1500 setup total.

I don't think an avionics shop would touch anything like that for
under $1000 in labor (can't really blame them, its probably *harder*
to install than a latest generation unit), so I would be doing the
work myself with an IA's assistance & signoff (and some begging at the
FSDO). The M3 seems particularly attractive in this regard, because it
is so simple to install when you use the MD40-64 indicator with
built-in lights (no OBS, switching, etc). I also much prefer its
interface to the older generation King units. My only concern is the
near-term (say 3-5 years) availability of database updates for the M3,
has anyone heard any rumblings about this ? Jepp seems to offer the
Skybound II service for the Northstar right along the Garmins and
Kings, but not sure what their policies have historically been about
discontinuing updates.

I should mention my primary motivation for wanting the GPS is
flying direct without having to beg for fake vectors, and filing lower
on airways with high MEAs that have considerably lower MOCAs. The
approach capability is secondary, but since it just involves one extra
annunciator light (at least on the Northstar), I'd try to get it
certified. I do understand these first generation A1 units will be
throwaway when the precision guidance becomes reality, that's OK, I am
just looking for something I could put in cheap and use for the next
3-5 years.

Thanks for any comments, particularly from current M3 owners or
someone who has rolled their own (any brand). I think I have a pretty
good understanding about all the things required to have the rig
IFR-blessed (encoder interface, CDI, annunciators, COM interference
testing, AFM supplement, etc.), so I am looking for war stories about
the certification process itself when avionics shop wasn't involved.
The IA is willing as long as the stuff has some basic pedigree
paperwork (tagged, 337 sample, some continued airworthiness writeup).

Thanks!

Martin

We fly an Approach M3 as our primary nav. A great unit. Simple to use and
includes high and low enroute airways which is really nice. Jepp has good
data base support so far... we use the Skybound II to burn the card. The
only thing lacking (which I think the King might have) is SIDs and STARs.


"Martin Kosina" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal. Being admittedly a bottom-feeder in this area, my choices
are basically limited to a used KLN89B, or the Northstar M3 Approach,
something like a $1500 setup total.

I don't think an avionics shop would touch anything like that for
under $1000 in labor (can't really blame them, its probably *harder*
to install than a latest generation unit), so I would be doing the
work myself with an IA's assistance & signoff (and some begging at the
FSDO). The M3 seems particularly attractive in this regard, because it
is so simple to install when you use the MD40-64 indicator with
built-in lights (no OBS, switching, etc). I also much prefer its
interface to the older generation King units. My only concern is the
near-term (say 3-5 years) availability of database updates for the M3,
has anyone heard any rumblings about this ? Jepp seems to offer the
Skybound II service for the Northstar right along the Garmins and
Kings, but not sure what their policies have historically been about
discontinuing updates.

I should mention my primary motivation for wanting the GPS is
flying direct without having to beg for fake vectors, and filing lower
on airways with high MEAs that have considerably lower MOCAs. The
approach capability is secondary, but since it just involves one extra
annunciator light (at least on the Northstar), I'd try to get it
certified. I do understand these first generation A1 units will be
throwaway when the precision guidance becomes reality, that's OK, I am
just looking for something I could put in cheap and use for the next
3-5 years.

Thanks for any comments, particularly from current M3 owners or
someone who has rolled their own (any brand). I think I have a pretty
good understanding about all the things required to have the rig
IFR-blessed (encoder interface, CDI, annunciators, COM interference
testing, AFM supplement, etc.), so I am looking for war stories about
the certification process itself when avionics shop wasn't involved.
The IA is willing as long as the stuff has some basic pedigree
paperwork (tagged, 337 sample, some continued airworthiness writeup).

Thanks!

Martin

(Martin Kosina) wrote in message . com...
I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal. Being admittedly a bottom-feeder in this area, my choices
are basically limited to a used KLN89B, or the Northstar M3 Approach,
something like a $1500 setup total.

Martin,

We have an Apollo 2001 in our plane, which might be another
alternative for you to consider. It's installed exactly as
you suggest -- coupled to a Midcontinent integrated obs/
annunciator unit. Ours is also coupled to an Apollo 360
moving map which sits right in the primary scan area and
is very very useful.

I'm not as familiar with the M3, but I believe all of the
IFR GPS of that era required baro-aiding. This may mean a
serializer cable for your altitude encoder.

I would be doing the work myself with an IA's assistance & signoff

I could be mistaken, but I don't think an IA can sign off
the installation of an IFR-certified GPS. It has to have a
337 field mod approval signed off *in that airplane*, which
includes some frequency testing and so forth and so on.

What I suggest is that you start with the FSDO. Ask what's
involved -- who can do it etc -- and for some names in your
local area. Also talk to your IA. If you luck out (we did)
the FSDO person you talk to will bend the rules a bit to suggest
a couple of names you can talk to. Then talk to them and find
out what they're willing to do to work with you. If they're
willing to let you do most of the install under their supe, and
do the frequency and flight testing, you can probably do OK
on the price.

Thanks for any comments, particularly from current M3 owners or
someone who has rolled their own (any brand). I think I have a pretty
good understanding about all the things required to have the rig
IFR-blessed (encoder interface, CDI, annunciators, COM interference
testing, AFM supplement, etc.), so I am looking for war stories about
the certification process itself when avionics shop wasn't involved.

I could be mistaken, but I really think you need a certified avionics
repairman to bless the installation. We found someone who was willing
to work with us. I would start with the FSDO and ask there -- if they
tell you an IA is fine, Nevah Mind.

Good luck! IMHO, the older IFR units are amoung the best values
today. What did someone else here say? "the cutting edge of yesterday's
technology"?

Sydney

Saw your post on the cheap approach certified gps. i am thinking about the
same either at kln89b or m3. What is the cost of the mid-continent
cdi/announciator unit? i have been looking at ebay but cant find any.

Endre


(Snowbird) wrote in message . com...
(Martin Kosina) wrote in message . com...
I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal. Being admittedly a bottom-feeder in this area, my choices
are basically limited to a used KLN89B, or the Northstar M3 Approach,
something like a $1500 setup total.

Martin,

We have an Apollo 2001 in our plane, which might be another
alternative for you to consider. It's installed exactly as
you suggest -- coupled to a Midcontinent integrated obs/
annunciator unit. Ours is also coupled to an Apollo 360
moving map which sits right in the primary scan area and
is very very useful.

I'm not as familiar with the M3, but I believe all of the
IFR GPS of that era required baro-aiding. This may mean a
serializer cable for your altitude encoder.

I would be doing the work myself with an IA's assistance & signoff

I could be mistaken, but I don't think an IA can sign off
the installation of an IFR-certified GPS. It has to have a
337 field mod approval signed off *in that airplane*, which
includes some frequency testing and so forth and so on.

What I suggest is that you start with the FSDO. Ask what's
involved -- who can do it etc -- and for some names in your
local area. Also talk to your IA. If you luck out (we did)
the FSDO person you talk to will bend the rules a bit to suggest
a couple of names you can talk to. Then talk to them and find
out what they're willing to do to work with you. If they're
willing to let you do most of the install under their supe, and
do the frequency and flight testing, you can probably do OK
on the price.

Thanks for any comments, particularly from current M3 owners or
someone who has rolled their own (any brand). I think I have a pretty
good understanding about all the things required to have the rig
IFR-blessed (encoder interface, CDI, annunciators, COM interference
testing, AFM supplement, etc.), so I am looking for war stories about
the certification process itself when avionics shop wasn't involved.

I could be mistaken, but I really think you need a certified avionics
repairman to bless the installation. We found someone who was willing
to work with us. I would start with the FSDO and ask there -- if they
tell you an IA is fine, Nevah Mind.

Good luck! IMHO, the older IFR units are amoung the best values
today. What did someone else here say? "the cutting edge of yesterday's
technology"?

Sydney

In rec.aviation.owning Martin Kosina wrote:
: Hi all,

Hi Martin, been away, hope you see this.
snip
I had a used M3 installed in my Cherokee last year. Installation cost
including IFR cert. and filing paperwork was about $300. I paid about
$1200 for the GPS and the Mid-Continent CDI. Of course, I made the wiring
harness myself (which I am capable of, and had the proper equipment to do),
and this saved me some labor.

I picked the M3 because it had the simplest IFR install of all older GPS
units. (And because I have a BMW M3.) The King units need a very expensive
CDI with a resolver in it, and an external switch annunciator. The KLN89
moving map is not very usable, at least to me.

The database support for the M3 appears to be likely to continue for a while.
I've been using Skybound for updates with no problems. It appears that some
of the other older GPS units are getting marginal in their datacard capability
with all of the new GPS approaches and intersections - look at the Jepp
"NavData" area for their announcements about Apollo 2001 and Trimble/Free
flight datacard limitations.

If you want a slightly newer technology unit for a reasonable cost you
can look at the Garmin GPS155XL, or the UPSAT equivalent (GX55?)

Hope this helps,
--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)

Ditto here. We love our M3. I fly behind others, but still like the M3. I
fly airways a lot when going through areas with lots of SUA, the airways
usually avoid vectors and reroutes for me. Having airways in the M3 is very
useful to me. No localizers in the database, though, so ILS/DME approaches
have to be done with our KNS80 for DME.

Just had our first repair on the M3. The folks in Canada did a nice job and
even touched up the panel, looks much better now. It has a battery to hold
up some RAM for user data and last fix, it finally went kaput. I didn't
know at the time that it had a battery.

Someone mentioned the KLN89, maybe it can grow on you, but in my limited
experience with it, it is the least-intuitive, most difficult to use unit I
have ever tried.

Stan


"McGregor" wrote in message
news
We fly an Approach M3 as our primary nav. A great unit. Simple to use and
includes high and low enroute airways which is really nice. Jepp has good
data base support so far... we use the Skybound II to burn the card. The
only thing lacking (which I think the King might have) is SIDs and STARs.


"Martin Kosina" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal. Being admittedly a bottom-feeder in this area, my choices
are basically limited to a used KLN89B, or the Northstar M3 Approach,
something like a $1500 setup total.

I don't think an avionics shop would touch anything like that for
under $1000 in labor (can't really blame them, its probably *harder*
to install than a latest generation unit), so I would be doing the
work myself with an IA's assistance & signoff (and some begging at the
FSDO). The M3 seems particularly attractive in this regard, because it
is so simple to install when you use the MD40-64 indicator with
built-in lights (no OBS, switching, etc). I also much prefer its
interface to the older generation King units. My only concern is the
near-term (say 3-5 years) availability of database updates for the M3,
has anyone heard any rumblings about this ? Jepp seems to offer the
Skybound II service for the Northstar right along the Garmins and
Kings, but not sure what their policies have historically been about
discontinuing updates.

I should mention my primary motivation for wanting the GPS is
flying direct without having to beg for fake vectors, and filing lower
on airways with high MEAs that have considerably lower MOCAs. The
approach capability is secondary, but since it just involves one extra
annunciator light (at least on the Northstar), I'd try to get it
certified. I do understand these first generation A1 units will be
throwaway when the precision guidance becomes reality, that's OK, I am
just looking for something I could put in cheap and use for the next
3-5 years.

Thanks for any comments, particularly from current M3 owners or
someone who has rolled their own (any brand). I think I have a pretty
good understanding about all the things required to have the rig
IFR-blessed (encoder interface, CDI, annunciators, COM interference
testing, AFM supplement, etc.), so I am looking for war stories about
the certification process itself when avionics shop wasn't involved.
The IA is willing as long as the stuff has some basic pedigree
paperwork (tagged, 337 sample, some continued airworthiness writeup).

Thanks!

Martin

(Martin Kosina) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal.

Thank you for all the advice, guys, especially Bill whom I had some
offline discussion with. One more question: does the M3's database
include localizer DME fixes ? (Not approaches, just the ability to
show distance off something like "ISLE"). I heard some of the other
older units have it often categorized as intersections, FWIW.

Gray-area legalities aside, my real question is, of course, is: can I
rip out the DME if I get the M3 :-) My KN62A is not channeled by the
NAV, so the usual argument for keeping it because its "already right
there" doesn't apply much, still extra twisting to do. But if the
fixes aren't available, I'll have to keep it, I do need the LOC-DME
capability.

The other option is to get rid of the 300 ADF (I do have to get rid of
one box, no room), probably a stronger boat anchor candidate, although
I am not ready to badmouth it too much. Without an IFR GPS, I use it
all the time. Despite all its folly, there is something to be said for
a three-knob radio that just points to the station...

Thanks again for the input !

Martin

I have a King KLN90B, a KX155 and an autopilot. That is it. (well a
transponder). I also have a handheld Garmin 195 (which I always have
turned on when I'm in the clouds), and a handheld radio with its
outside antennae for backup. My autopilot is coupled to the IFR GPS or
the VOR. So long as I don't lose GPS signal, I have no need for DME.
The ball game TFR's give new usage to the ADF, but if it were me, I'd
ditch the ADF and keep the DME. There is a legal requirement to do
your alternate approaches without GPS so I am limited to VOR and ILS's
that dont need DME for my alternates. The localizers that have DME are
in my King database. If they aren't you can usually DME off the FAF
and read off that. In fact that is what I do when I fly an ILS. Make
the FAF my waypoint, put it in OBS mode and dial in the approach
course on the IFR GPS. That way I have DME from the FAF, a course line
on the localizer to assist me. Most NDB approaches have GPS overlays
now or a dedicated GPS approach to that runway. I've never used the
unit you are discussing, but GPS has revolutionized small airplane
navigation. I am very happy with my King KLN90B, its easy enough to
use once you get to know it and I hardly even need enroute charts
anymore, and I certainly don't need the AFD. I just go direct! and all
the airport info is in my GPS, as well as a backup altimeter,
groundspeed and an e6b. Get one, you will like it. Only downside is
the updates, which you don't have to sweat if you do the ILS and have
www.aircharts.com for charts with their monthly changes. Good luck!

(Martin Kosina) wrote in message om...
(Martin Kosina) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal.

Thank you for all the advice, guys, especially Bill whom I had some
offline discussion with. One more question: does the M3's database
include localizer DME fixes ? (Not approaches, just the ability to
show distance off something like "ISLE"). I heard some of the other
older units have it often categorized as intersections, FWIW.

Gray-area legalities aside, my real question is, of course, is: can I
rip out the DME if I get the M3 :-) My KN62A is not channeled by the
NAV, so the usual argument for keeping it because its "already right
there" doesn't apply much, still extra twisting to do. But if the
fixes aren't available, I'll have to keep it, I do need the LOC-DME
capability.

The other option is to get rid of the 300 ADF (I do have to get rid of
one box, no room), probably a stronger boat anchor candidate, although
I am not ready to badmouth it too much. Without an IFR GPS, I use it
all the time. Despite all its folly, there is something to be said for
a three-knob radio that just points to the station...

Thanks again for the input !

Martin

Up until about 2 years ago none of the IFR GPS's had the DME to the
localizers in the database. Now the ones that have DME are in the
database. What you did was use the FAF and read the distance off the
chart the other way. Only a very few localizers have NO FAF's or other
waypoints associated with the approach that arent in the database.

(Martin Kosina) wrote in message om...
(Martin Kosina) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I am toying with the idea of installing a "cheap" IFR GPS in my '76
Cardinal.

Thank you for all the advice, guys, especially Bill whom I had some
offline discussion with. One more question: does the M3's database
include localizer DME fixes ? (Not approaches, just the ability to
show distance off something like "ISLE"). I heard some of the other
older units have it often categorized as intersections, FWIW.

Gray-area legalities aside, my real question is, of course, is: can I
rip out the DME if I get the M3 :-) My KN62A is not channeled by the
NAV, so the usual argument for keeping it because its "already right
there" doesn't apply much, still extra twisting to do. But if the
fixes aren't available, I'll have to keep it, I do need the LOC-DME
capability.

The other option is to get rid of the 300 ADF (I do have to get rid of
one box, no room), probably a stronger boat anchor candidate, although
I am not ready to badmouth it too much. Without an IFR GPS, I use it
all the time. Despite all its folly, there is something to be said for
a three-knob radio that just points to the station...

Thanks again for the input !

Martin