FAI Sporting Code Section 3 experts wanted

I googled this and could not find an answer...and I
reread the Code last night...so forgive my denseness...but
I cannot figure out---

For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
effect?

The finish point can be declared afterward? It does
not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter difference
between start and finish is calculated from the post-flight
start and finishes?

Stewart Kissel wrote:
For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
effect?

The finish point can be declared afterward? It does
not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter difference
between start and finish is calculated from the post-flight
start and finishes?


You can't post-declare start or finish points for a distance task. If
you want a start point other than the point of release, or a finish
point other than the point of landing, you need to declare them before
flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter allowance is between
the start point altitude and finish point altitude, so if neither start
nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude between the point of
release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters or less to avoid
the penalty.

Marc

http://www.abqsoaring.org/LONGXC_031025.pdf

Marc-

This is what got me curious...according to Karl an
'Undeclared Remote Start' can be used for a 1000k attempt.
I assume this is considered a distance task...or perhaps
it is not? Not trying to be argumentitive here...just
confused

At 01:48 29 August 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
http://www.abqsoaring.org/LONGXC_031025.pdf

This is what got me curious...according to Karl an
'Undeclared Remote Start' can be used for a 1000k attempt.
I assume this is considered a distance task...or perhaps
it is not? Not trying to be argumentitive here...just
confused

I believe Carl is mistaken. Any Start Point other than
release from tow (or Means of Propulsion stop) must
be declared for badge flights including FAI Diplomes.
Similarly, any Finish Point other than landing (or
Means of Propulsion engaged) must be declared for badge
flights including Diplomes.

FWIW, there are huge differences between 'legal' tasks
for Badges and Records. It is possible to fly a 2,000Km
Free O&R record (declared per Sporting Code 4.2.1,
excluding item e) and not earn Silver Distance!

Judy

Stewart Kissel wrote:
This is what got me curious...according to Karl an
'Undeclared Remote Start' can be used for a 1000k attempt.
I assume this is considered a distance task...or perhaps
it is not? Not trying to be argumentitive here...just
confused

I think what Carl is trying to say is that you can release from the
towplane an arbitrary distance from the airport, say, over high ground
20 miles away. This is actually fairly common for long flights, as the
early lift is often elsewhere. But, if no start point is declared, the
point of release is the start point...

Marc

Then perhaps he is describing a 3 TP free task?

At 04:30 29 August 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
Then perhaps he is describing a 3 TP free task?

Could be. Importantly, however, none of the 'Free'
tasks described in Sporting Code 1.4.3 are available
for badge flights including the Diplomes.

Judy

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:

For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
effect?

The finish point can be declared afterward? It does
not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter difference
between start and finish is calculated from the post-flight
start and finishes?


You can't post-declare start or finish points for a distance task. If
you want a start point other than the point of release, or a finish
point other than the point of landing, you need to declare them before
flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter allowance is between
the start point altitude and finish point altitude, so if neither start
nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude between the point of
release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters or less to avoid
the penalty.

It's unlikely Stewart was talking about world records, but the Code says

1.4.3 Free distance performances for records only
The WAY POINT(S) of free distance record flight performances may be
declared post-flight.

Since the start and finish are way points, it sounds like they could be
declared post-flight. This would also work for USA State records, which
allow the free distance task.

For badges, it's pretty clear (note the last sentence):

1.4.5.b. DISTANCE USING UP TO THREE TURN POINTS
A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH
POINT. If the FINISH POINT is the landing place it need not be declared.
The TURN POINTS must be at least 10 kilometres apart and may be claimed
once, in any sequence, or not at all. This course must be declared.

What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider pilot
effectively choose the end of the task by starting the motor, but the
unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point or use the
landing point.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

So if a Start Point is declared....you can tow as high
as you want with out penalty? And a declared finish
point altitude is then subtracted from this?




At 05:00 29 August 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:

For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
effect?

The finish point can be declared afterward? It
does
not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter
difference
between start and finish is calculated from the
post-flight
start and finishes?


You can't post-declare start or finish points for
a distance task. If
you want a start point other than the point of release,
or a finish
point other than the point of landing, you need to
declare them before
flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter
allowance is between
the start point altitude and finish point altitude,
so if neither start
nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude
between the point of
release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters
or less to avoid
the penalty.

It's unlikely Stewart was talking about world records,
but the Code says

1.4.3 Free distance performances for records only
The WAY POINT(S) of free distance record flight performances
may be
declared post-flight.

Since the start and finish are way points, it sounds
like they could be
declared post-flight. This would also work for USA
State records, which
allow the free distance task.

For badges, it's pretty clear (note the last sentence):

1.4.5.b. DISTANCE USING UP TO THREE TURN POINTS
A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS
to a FINISH
POINT. If the FINISH POINT is the landing place it
need not be declared.
The TURN POINTS must be at least 10 kilometres apart
and may be claimed
once, in any sequence, or not at all. This course must
be declared.

What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider
pilot
effectively choose the end of the task by starting
the motor, but the
unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point
or use the
landing point.
--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

And if you use tow release as your start with no declared
finish...can you land anywhere you please?

At 05:30 29 August 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
So if a Start Point is declared....you can tow as high
as you want with out penalty? And a declared finish
point altitude is then subtracted from this?




At 05:00 29 August 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:

For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
effect?

The finish point can be declared afterward? It
does
not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter
difference
between start and finish is calculated from the
post-flight
start and finishes?


You can't post-declare start or finish points for
a distance task. If
you want a start point other than the point of release,
or a finish
point other than the point of landing, you need to
declare them before
flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter
allowance is between
the start point altitude and finish point altitude,
so if neither start
nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude
between the point of
release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters
or less to avoid
the penalty.

It's unlikely Stewart was talking about world records,
but the Code says

1.4.3 Free distance performances for records only
The WAY POINT(S) of free distance record flight performances
may be
declared post-flight.

Since the start and finish are way points, it sounds
like they could be
declared post-flight. This would also work for USA
State records, which
allow the free distance task.

For badges, it's pretty clear (note the last sentence):

1.4.5.b. DISTANCE USING UP TO THREE TURN POINTS
A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS
to a FINISH
POINT. If the FINISH POINT is the landing place it
need not be declared.
The TURN POINTS must be at least 10 kilometres apart
and may be claimed
once, in any sequence, or not at all. This course must
be declared.

What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider
pilot
effectively choose the end of the task by starting
the motor, but the
unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point
or use the
landing point.
--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA