Cessna buyers in So. Cal. beware !

"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote in message
...
Robert M. Gary wrote:

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote in message
...

But (at least in the state where I live) the seller of a car is required
by law to voluntarily disclose any accident damage exceeding 25% of the
vehicle's value. sounds like that people don't seem to think the same
standard applies to airplanes.

Also in this state, a seller of a building is rquired by law to
voluntarily disclose a whole laundry list of problems and potential
problems, BEFORE an offer can be tendered.

So in both of the above cases, if hte seller were selling a car or a
building, what he did would be either illegal, or very questionable in
legality.



Oh, if only we could have more laws and regulations, we would never
[over the top sarcasm snipped]


Regardless of what you think about laws, the point of this thread is
that it is debating the ethics of selling an airplane without
volunteering the info that it had received major repairs. Apparently a
lot of poeple think that if someone uknowningly buys the airplance it's
their own fault for not asking the right question to uncover it. Someone
else cited automobiles and real property as an analogy to "prove" that
it's in fact OK to lie by omission and hide behind the buyer's failure
to ask the exact right question. I was simply pointing out that in fact
it is generally considered unethical to sell these items without this
disclosure, so much so that in many states that disclosure is legally
mandatory which kinda blows holes in the whole "no seller has to tell
any buyer anything" argument.


And we all know that laws fix everything. The more laws the better off
everybody is. Not. My guess is the buyer in those states with the
disclosure laws are ripped off at the same rate as buyers in states without
the laws. In fact in many cases such laws generate legal loop holes that
have the exact opposite effect of the original intention of the law.

If someone doesn't know to ask the right questions it is their fault. If
you don't know the rules, don't play the game. Especially if you can't
afford to lose.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:04:14 -0700, Tom Sixkiller wrote:

Ever buy something custom made?

Yes, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. As it related to
the items I mentioned, none were custom items. In fact, IIRC, according
to the press, Congresional hearings, and military people which were
interviewed, nothing was custom about them. In fact, it was mentioned
many times that any hardware store could of provided the items at a proper
price.


If I really need a specific tub liner, and your's is all I have, it
might be worth $900.

Not when you can go to the store and get one for 1/10 the price.


Do you know WHY the military had to pay $600 for hammers and why they
could not get them at Ace Hardware.

According to everything I ever read about the subject, there never was a
single reason to support those prices, aside from simply attempting to
steal from Peter to pay Paul. Feel free to correct as needed

Evidently, terminology is foreign to you.

Doubtful.


What does the term "price" mean to you (other than what TV advertising
says).

Oh shesh. I shutter anytime I hear this. As if it actually answers
anything. You said, "Maybe the fact that price is usually a measure of
'suitability for a purpose'." The problem is, it isn't. Price is a
measure of what the market is willing to bare for an item and often has
nothing to do with suitability or quality. Such statements also blindly
ignore the human condition, which is blindly open to manipulation by
marketing and sheer stupidity or ignorance.

The reason I poked fun is because you seem to give the impression that the
more you pay for something, with no exception, will always be better than
anything for which you can pay less. In otherwords, if I take two
identical planes, and raise the price 10% on one, you gave me the
impression that you think the higher priced of the two is
automatically better.


Cheers,

Greg

G.R. Patterson III wrote:


TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:

But (at least in the state where I live) the seller of a car is required
by law to voluntarily disclose any accident damage exceeding 25% of the
vehicle's value. sounds like that people don't seem to think the same
standard applies to airplanes.

Also in this state, a seller of a building is rquired by law to
voluntarily disclose a whole laundry list of problems and potential
problems, BEFORE an offer can be tendered.


None of this is required in any of the States in which I have lived.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

I had to do this when I sold my house in PA a few years ago and I
believe it is required across the border in NY as well.


Matt

Greg Copeland wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:04:14 -0700, Tom Sixkiller wrote:

Ever buy something custom made?

Yes, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. As it related to
the items I mentioned, none were custom items. In fact, IIRC, according
to the press, Congresional hearings, and military people which were
interviewed, nothing was custom about them. In fact, it was mentioned
many times that any hardware store could of provided the items at a proper
price.


If I really need a specific tub liner, and your's is all I have, it
might be worth $900.

Not when you can go to the store and get one for 1/10 the price.


Do you know WHY the military had to pay $600 for hammers and why they
could not get them at Ace Hardware.

According to everything I ever read about the subject, there never was a
single reason to support those prices, aside from simply attempting to
steal from Peter to pay Paul. Feel free to correct as needed

Evidently, terminology is foreign to you.

Doubtful.


What does the term "price" mean to you (other than what TV advertising
says).

Oh shesh. I shutter anytime I hear this. As if it actually answers
anything. You said, "Maybe the fact that price is usually a measure of
'suitability for a purpose'." The problem is, it isn't. Price is a
measure of what the market is willing to bare for an item and often has
nothing to do with suitability or quality. Such statements also blindly
ignore the human condition, which is blindly open to manipulation by
marketing and sheer stupidity or ignorance.

The reason I poked fun is because you seem to give the impression that the
more you pay for something, with no exception, will always be better than
anything for which you can pay less. In otherwords, if I take two
identical planes, and raise the price 10% on one, you gave me the
impression that you think the higher priced of the two is
automatically better.

Cheers,

Greg


The True Value hardware would work fine - IF it met the required specs.

Therein lies the rub.

"Greg Copeland" wrote in message
news
The reason I poked fun is because you seem to give the impression that the
more you pay for something, with no exception, will always be better than
anything for which you can pay less. In otherwords, if I take two
identical planes, and raise the price 10% on one, you gave me the
impression that you think the higher priced of the two is
automatically better.

But Greg. . . . "If it saves the life of just ONE child, it's worth it".

)

Rich S.

"Greg Copeland" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:04:14 -0700, Tom Sixkiller wrote:


If I really need a specific tub liner, and your's is all I have, it
might be worth $900.

Not when you can go to the store and get one for 1/10 the price.

With comprehension skills like that, I can see why you need someone to hold
your hand.

"Rich S." wrote:

But Greg. . . . "If it saves the life of just ONE child, it's worth it".

Even if it costs the life of several other people?

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

Matt Whiting wrote:

I had to do this when I sold my house in PA a few years ago and I
believe it is required across the border in NY as well.

Perhaps so, but I did not have to do this when I sold my house in New Jersey a few
years ago.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote in message ...
But (at least in the state where I live) the seller of a car is required
by law to voluntarily disclose any accident damage exceeding 25% of the
vehicle's value. sounds like that people don't seem to think the same
standard applies to airplanes.

I don't know what 'people' think, but if the accident damage was not
"disclosed", how did the original poster find out about it?

What I think you're missing is the issue doesn't seem to be one
of not disclosing major damage. The issue is when and how it was
disclosed. The seller didn't volunteer the information on the
phone. The buyer either found out from the maintenance records
or was told when he looked at the plane/asked questions.

Those laws in your state require you to burble out every negative
thing/"whole laundry list of problems" to everyone who calls
and expresses interest in your car/building, before they even
come look? Even if they don't ask?

Suppose I have a car which was rear-ended. It was properly repaired
by a reputable shop, drives perfectly, and there's no way to tell by
looking at it. On the phone, you don't ask me if it's ever been in
an accident and I don't volunteer the info. You come, look at my car,
drive it. I say "it was rear-ended in '99 and repaired by XXX" (or maybe
I offer you a written document which provides this information and give
you a chance to read it) You either make me an offer or go away at
that point.

Is that unethical? Is that against the disclosure laws in your state?

So in both of the above cases, if hte seller were selling a car or a
building, what he did would be either illegal, or very questionable in
legality.

How so? Are you saying the laws in your state require you to volunteer
every negative piece of information you have about an item you're selling,
to everyone who calls or emails you? Or even in your state, are you just
required to disclose it at some point before the potential purchaser
makes an offer?

Cheers,
Sydney

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


"Rich S." wrote:

But Greg. . . . "If it saves the life of just ONE child, it's worth it".

Even if it costs the life of several other people?

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

And the freedom of a nation!

Rich "motorcycle helmets for everyone, all the time" S.

Sorry, just ignore me. I'm having a Transportation Safety Administration
reaction.