What First Glider to own?

I have been considering this same subject myself.

A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of the
things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others
statements.

Ditto club Libelle.

H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and much
more acceptable looks than a Libelle.

ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit
length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook is a
big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard.

Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness,
but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly.

LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot.

STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours
pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a pilot
who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the
glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted. Luckily he
was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take ones
hand off the stick!

Std Jantar1 pretty good all round.

Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit.

If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I have
flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel for
the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus B.

I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best
option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the
price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout. Easy
to fly.

I would avoid the following like the plague.

Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common.

Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit,
uglier than even Libelle.

Good luck and regards

Dave Lawley




At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote:

Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your
own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles
"Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any
advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has
been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the
field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct
assumptions.




--
Sparkorama

On Dec 7, 9:50*pm, Dave Lawley wrote:
I have been considering this same subject myself.

A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of the
things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others
statements.

Ditto club Libelle.

H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and much
more acceptable looks than a Libelle.

ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit
length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook is a
big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard.

Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness,
but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly.

LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot.

STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours
pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a pilot
who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the
glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted. Luckily he
was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take ones
hand off the stick!

Std Jantar1 *pretty good all round.

Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit.

If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I have
flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel for
the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus B.

I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best
option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the
price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout. *Easy
to fly.

I would avoid the following like the plague.

Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common.

Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit,
uglier than even Libelle.

Good luck and regards

Dave Lawley

At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote:





Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your
own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles
"Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any
advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has
been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the
field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct
assumptions.

--
Sparkorama- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have heard some horror stories about the Phoebus, from people that
had heard stories, but never flown one. Truth is the Phoebus is a
decent first sailplane for a private pilot with some Grob experience
and average skills.

My Phoebus C was one of the most docile sailplanes I have ever flown
and had not one bad quality. Everyone I know that has actually flown a
Phoebus (A,B, or C), including and usually being low time pilots,
report the same. If one is concerned, start with the CG in a forward
position.

The landing gear is not a problem. My understanding is that it was
made to be sacrificial when very rough landings were made, protecting
the fus from major damage.

For more Phoebus info: http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/.

Mike

The Kestrel 19 is not a glider for the inexperienced.
It has a busy cockpit and demanding flight envelope to get the glider
correctly configured for the various flight phases.
It is not glider that can be rushed in the circuit and landing phases.
The glider needs space and time and requires the pilot to keep their
brains well ahead of the game.
Speak to some of the `old`Kestrel boys and they will put you straight!
Colin








At 08:41 08 December 2010, Mike wrote:
On Dec 7, 9:50=A0pm, Dave Lawley wrote:
I have been considering this same subject myself.

A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of
the
things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others
statements.

Ditto club Libelle.

H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and
muc=
h
more acceptable looks than a Libelle.

ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit
length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook
is
=
a
big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard.

Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness,
but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly.

LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot.

STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours
pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a
pilo=
t
who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the
glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted.
Luckily
h=
e
was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take
ones
hand off the stick!

Std Jantar1 =A0pretty good all round.

Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit.

If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I
have
flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel
for
the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus
B.

I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best
option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the
price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout.
=A0E=
asy
to fly.

I would avoid the following like the plague.

Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common.

Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit,
uglier than even Libelle.

Good luck and regards

Dave Lawley

At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote:





Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your
own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles
"Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll
find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point
the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If
you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any
advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into
this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble)
but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder
for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a
few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by
Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in
"Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room
and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it
didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a
Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons
(both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look
inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per
the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to
retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit
of
a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so
it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed
any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has
been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the
field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready
to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were
considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to
maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are
correct
assumptions.

--
Sparkorama- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have heard some horror stories about the Phoebus, from people that
had heard stories, but never flown one. Truth is the Phoebus is a
decent first sailplane for a private pilot with some Grob experience
and average skills.

My Phoebus C was one of the most docile sailplanes I have ever flown
and had not one bad quality. Everyone I know that has actually flown a
Phoebus (A,B, or C), including and usually being low time pilots,
report the same. If one is concerned, start with the CG in a forward
position.

The landing gear is not a problem. My understanding is that it was
made to be sacrificial when very rough landings were made, protecting
the fus from major damage.

For more Phoebus info: http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/.

Mike

On Dec 6, 10:41*am, Hagbard Celine wrote:

If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too.

I've flown an Open Cirrus for some years and am very happy with it.

The heavy rigging is not a problem if you make two trestles - even
better with three (the third a low one to take the wing root while you
position yourself to slide it into the fuselage). I've made a simple
mid-wing dolly to take the weight, and can now easily rig solo.

Cockpit is very roomy, except if you're long in the body you may find
headroom very tight. Long legs are no problem at all.

Note that it's a heavy glider with airbrakes that are good enough but
with little in reserve. Speed control is paramount - 5 kts extra can
more than double your float and get you into trouble in a field
landing. However, if you can fly a steady approach you won't have any
problems, just check out the book figures and don't start adding some
speed "for safety".

Otherwise it's easy to fly and performs well if you don't rush it.
Sink rate rises rapidly beyond 60kt, and if you really want to go
places pull the speed back to 50 when (mine at least) gets better than
40:1.

On Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:39:02 PM UTC-8, ProfChrisReed wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:41*am, Hagbard Celine wrote:

If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too.

I've flown an Open Cirrus for some years and am very happy with it.

The heavy rigging is not a problem if you make two trestles - even
better with three (the third a low one to take the wing root while you
position yourself to slide it into the fuselage). I've made a simple
mid-wing dolly to take the weight, and can now easily rig solo.

Cockpit is very roomy, except if you're long in the body you may find
headroom very tight. Long legs are no problem at all.

Note that it's a heavy glider with airbrakes that are good enough but
with little in reserve. Speed control is paramount - 5 kts extra can
more than double your float and get you into trouble in a field
landing. However, if you can fly a steady approach you won't have any
problems, just check out the book figures and don't start adding some
speed "for safety".

Otherwise it's easy to fly and performs well if you don't rush it.
Sink rate rises rapidly beyond 60kt, and if you really want to go
places pull the speed back to 50 when (mine at least) gets better than
40:1.

I just looked at a beautifully restored and updated Open Cirrus and noticed 2 things
1. While I'm 6 ft tall but long legged, I was surprised that my head rested against the canopy. This may be remediable as the ship apparently has a modified floor pan.
2. I found the rudder dampers (while sitting in just the cockpit, unassembled, to be VERY stiff.
Any comments, especially on the latter issue
Thanx

On Saturday, January 3, 2015 4:19:34 AM UTC, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:39:02 PM UTC-8, ProfChrisReed wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:41*am, Hagbard Celine wrote:

If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too.

I've flown an Open Cirrus for some years and am very happy with it.

The heavy rigging is not a problem if you make two trestles - even
better with three (the third a low one to take the wing root while you
position yourself to slide it into the fuselage). I've made a simple
mid-wing dolly to take the weight, and can now easily rig solo.

Cockpit is very roomy, except if you're long in the body you may find
headroom very tight. Long legs are no problem at all.

Note that it's a heavy glider with airbrakes that are good enough but
with little in reserve. Speed control is paramount - 5 kts extra can
more than double your float and get you into trouble in a field
landing. However, if you can fly a steady approach you won't have any
problems, just check out the book figures and don't start adding some
speed "for safety".

Otherwise it's easy to fly and performs well if you don't rush it.
Sink rate rises rapidly beyond 60kt, and if you really want to go
places pull the speed back to 50 when (mine at least) gets better than
40:1.

I just looked at a beautifully restored and updated Open Cirrus and noticed 2 things
1. While I'm 6 ft tall but long legged, I was surprised that my head rested against the canopy. This may be remediable as the ship apparently has a modified floor pan.
2. I found the rudder dampers (while sitting in just the cockpit, unassembled, to be VERY stiff.
Any comments, especially on the latter issue
Thanx

I'm 6ft 1 inches, and with the hammock seat my head was too close to the canopy, so I removed the hammock and sit directly on the seat pan. You want to find a fairly reclined position - sitting upright won't work unless you are short bodied.

The rudder damper is a pain - before mine was replaced as worn out, the glider was much nicer to fly. Unfortunately, back in 1967/68 when the Cirrus was the hot racing ship one suffered rudder flutter (probably exceeding Vne by quite some amount) so the damper was added. You get used to it, and it seems less stiff in flight.

On Monday, January 5, 2015 3:01:01 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, January 3, 2015 4:19:34 AM UTC, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:39:02 PM UTC-8, ProfChrisReed wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:41*am, Hagbard Celine wrote:

If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too.

I've flown an Open Cirrus for some years and am very happy with it.

The heavy rigging is not a problem if you make two trestles - even
better with three (the third a low one to take the wing root while you
position yourself to slide it into the fuselage). I've made a simple
mid-wing dolly to take the weight, and can now easily rig solo.

Cockpit is very roomy, except if you're long in the body you may find
headroom very tight. Long legs are no problem at all.

Note that it's a heavy glider with airbrakes that are good enough but
with little in reserve. Speed control is paramount - 5 kts extra can
more than double your float and get you into trouble in a field
landing. However, if you can fly a steady approach you won't have any
problems, just check out the book figures and don't start adding some
speed "for safety".

Otherwise it's easy to fly and performs well if you don't rush it.
Sink rate rises rapidly beyond 60kt, and if you really want to go
places pull the speed back to 50 when (mine at least) gets better than
40:1.

I just looked at a beautifully restored and updated Open Cirrus and noticed 2 things
1. While I'm 6 ft tall but long legged, I was surprised that my head rested against the canopy. This may be remediable as the ship apparently has a modified floor pan.
2. I found the rudder dampers (while sitting in just the cockpit, unassembled, to be VERY stiff.
Any comments, especially on the latter issue
Thanx

I'm 6ft 1 inches, and with the hammock seat my head was too close to the canopy, so I removed the hammock and sit directly on the seat pan. You want to find a fairly reclined position - sitting upright won't work unless you are short bodied.

The rudder damper is a pain - before mine was replaced as worn out, the glider was much nicer to fly. Unfortunately, back in 1967/68 when the Cirrus was the hot racing ship one suffered rudder flutter (probably exceeding Vne by quite some amount) so the damper was added. You get used to it, and it seems less stiff in flight.

Can you tell me how the rudder damper works? Is it at all adjustable? I would probably be buying this Open Cirrus if I was sure the rudder pressure wouldn't be unpleasant. thanx

I'll put in a good word for the Grob 102 STD III.

A few negative comments were made about it's rigging and control
forces and I dispute both those claims.

Control forces are light and harmonious, I routinely fly with my hand
half way down the sitck, not needing all of the leverage. Performance
is moderate but comparable to a std cirrus. It is a very well behaved
glider, with good stall characteristics, so you can thermal quite
agressively without worry about spins.

Rigging is reputed to be hard, but is not. The tricks are different
than a LG/ASW/Discus though. The wings are somewhat heavy, but not
extreme. I do use a wing dolly to rig and it takes 15 mins to put the
wings and tail on. I bought my Grob at Sterling and the previous
owner gave me a rigging lesson. It was easy from there on.

On the general suggestions:
1) Do not buy an inactive glider. There might be all kinds of
problems and being a new owner will be hard.
2) Do not buy a bad trailer. This means one that is non road worthy,
or one that makes rigging difficult.
3) Buy a glider that is easy and convient to operate. Even if the
condition or performance is worse that the other option. People who
have to struggle to rig or fly sit on the ground a lot.

Todd Smith
3S

On Dec 8, 9:37*am, toad wrote:
I'll put in a good word for the Grob 102 STD III.

A few negative comments were made about it's rigging and control
forces and I dispute both those claims.

Control forces are light and harmonious, I routinely fly with my hand
half way down the sitck, not needing all of the leverage. Performance
is moderate but comparable to a std cirrus. It is a very well behaved
glider, with good stall characteristics, so you can thermal quite
agressively without worry about spins.

Rigging is reputed to be hard, but is not. *The tricks are different
than a LG/ASW/Discus though. *The wings are somewhat heavy, but not
extreme. *I do use a wing dolly to rig and it takes 15 mins to put the
wings and tail on. *I bought my Grob at Sterling and the previous
owner gave me a rigging lesson. *It was easy from there on.

On the general suggestions:
1) Do not buy an inactive glider. *There might be all kinds of
problems and being a new owner will be hard.
2) Do not buy a bad trailer. *This means one that is non road worthy,
or one that makes rigging difficult.
3) Buy a glider that is easy and convient to operate. Even if the
condition or performance is worse that the other option. *People who
have to struggle to rig or fly sit on the ground a lot.

Todd Smith
3S

I'll plug the Jantar Standard as a first sailplane. I have the "2"
model (SZD-48-1) purchased when I was a 100 hour pilot. It is easy to
fly of you come from glass trainers, has a decent glide approaching
40:1, and is very strong (VNE is 154 kts). Mine rigs easily, spoiler
controls are auto-hook up while the ailerons and elevator use secure
sliding/detent mechanisms that are easy to reach. The gear is very
tall and robust. It has top and bottom airbrakes for great glidepath
control. Make sure you sit in one - long arms are plus. The 1 and 2
models have a two piece canopy while the 3 model is one-piece and
hinged up front. Outside of that and the 3 model is nearly identical
to the 2.

Like other said, a good, functional trailer and the gel-coat condition
are key factors when making a purchase.

/Adam

::quick quote cutdown snip here on my post - just trying to keep the quite size down:::

Again, thank you all so much for this info. As of now, I'm looking at gliders I probably wouldn't have looked at, and rethinking the list. Everyone seems to think the LS4 is the greatest first glider since sliced bread. Interestingly, it appears to be back in production with a company called AMS out of Slovenia.The Libelle looks more attractive, which I never would have considered. It's funny that some think it's horribly ugly and others hold it as beautiful. And I'm on the larger side (5,11 and almost 200lbs) so many have warned I'd fit in it like a surgical glove. Newer ships in partnership are looking more attractive, though I don't know enough people yet at my local club to consider it. I like the low price and lightweight performance of the carbon fiber Sparrowhawk, but I can't find any information about it lately. Seems like their website (windward performance) is a couple years out of date and I don't know if they are even being produced. Naturally, a new one would be out of my price range, but it's certainly an interesting plane and the price is not bad. I like the LAK-12 I saw on wingsandwheels.com, and it's not too highly priced. I like the big name companies, like Glasflugel, or Rolladen-Schneider, and the fact that so many of their gliders are still flying. There's a theory in boats and motorcycles that it's almost never a good idea to buy the first generation of a new design, even from the big boys, and any design that has a long history is a good choice. I would love to see more side by side seating in gliders. I like the Pipistrel Taurus. Very cool self-launcher with arond 40:1 performance and a liquid system for CG that moves fore or aft depending on single or dual pilots. There is now an electric model. I love the idea of self launchers (though almost everyone seems to think they are not great for first gliders), and I admit I like the idea of having them there to sustain if you're in trouble. I know a lot of people think that's a bit like cheating, but safe is good. And I love the BRS all-plane parachutes. Seems to me every plane should have them, mostly for the idea of really impossible places where you can't land out or mid-air collisions. I can't imagine using a regular parachute and actually getting out of the plane. How the hell is that supposed to work while you're wingless and falling out of the sky at an increasing 32 feet per second per second? There's an old Preiss on wingsandwheels.com that looks interesting since it's a side by side, but it's one of the HP-14's I think originally which was converted. It's hard for me to like experimental ships and especially homebuilts. Makes me nervous. I'm sure there are many fine ones out there and by all accounts the HP's were well designed. I just can't help but imagine some joker building the thing in his garage, swilling cheap beer, while his kids are running around stepping on parts and wonder what he missed. I didn't really think much about trailers and rigging until this thread gave me some important info on that. It's a good point that if the thing is a pain to rig, you'll spend more time on the ground than in the air. I have learned about a lot of brands I'd never heard of when I originally got into the sport. One thing's for sure. They're really beautiful and its surprising how well a lot of gliders have kept their value. I am now officially obsessed.