I passed the checkride, now need a good GPS and passenger headset

The statement that using a GPS is a "skill" is almost humorous. Using
a GPS demands only slightly more skill than turning on an electric
light.

I rather strongly beg to differ. The simple stuff ("direct to" and
follow the purple line) requires little skill, but getting into the more
esoteric modes (which can happen by accident) can really increase the
pucker factor if you are relying on the box.

I'm disagreeing with the view expressed in
the post that initiated this thread that a brand new private pilot
"needs" a GPS--i.e., that it is a "necessity."

I agree with you there. GPS is not a necessity. I will say it's real
nice in complex airspace though. But nice is... well, just "nice".
Seat cushions are nice too. The most important display unit VFR is the
WAPDU (Wide Angle Plexiglass Display Unit)

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

vincent p. norris wrote:
The statement that using a GPS is a "skill" is almost humorous. Using
a GPS demands only slightly more skill than turning on an electric
light.


Exuse me for cutting in but I have to utter a hearty "Bull****!".

I was out of flying for 15 years after flying every day for various part 135
outfits. Let me tell you, today's panel looks different from what I was used
to. I climbed into a retrofitted C-172 for my BFR last year when I started
flying again and found that although I had several hundred hours in C-172s that
I couldn't figure out the panel. I could fly the airplane just fine... but I
couldn't figure out how to change frequencies, etc. The primary radio in that
airplane happened to be a Garmin 430.

I ended up taking dual *just* on the Garmin; then buying a manual and installing
a GPS sim on my computer. I learned how to do a few things with it but don't
fly enough any more to retain the lesser used functions. I probably only use
10% of what that GPS is capable of doing.

Don't tell me that operating the GPS doesn't require skills.

I say that while still remembering how to navigate with just a map and the
compass and I can still fly a very decent ILS or ADF approach. Those require
skills too... just different ones.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Agreed.

Seems to me that if you want to fly beyond local pattern hops, you need
to be skilled in basic navigation (i.e. using a map and compass), and an
electronic navigation system (GPS if you have it, something less like a
VOR or ADF if you are flying something with lesser equipment.)

On the other hand, you should be proficient in using whatever is
installed in the aircraft or perhaps it should be turned off.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
vincent p. norris wrote:

The statement that using a GPS is a "skill" is almost humorous. Using
a GPS demands only slightly more skill than turning on an electric
light.



Exuse me for cutting in but I have to utter a hearty "Bull****!".

I was out of flying for 15 years after flying every day for various part 135
outfits. Let me tell you, today's panel looks different from what I was used
to. I climbed into a retrofitted C-172 for my BFR last year when I started
flying again and found that although I had several hundred hours in C-172s that
I couldn't figure out the panel. I could fly the airplane just fine... but I
couldn't figure out how to change frequencies, etc. The primary radio in that
airplane happened to be a Garmin 430.

I ended up taking dual *just* on the Garmin; then buying a manual and installing
a GPS sim on my computer. I learned how to do a few things with it but don't
fly enough any more to retain the lesser used functions. I probably only use
10% of what that GPS is capable of doing.

Don't tell me that operating the GPS doesn't require skills.

I say that while still remembering how to navigate with just a map and the
compass and I can still fly a very decent ILS or ADF approach. Those require
skills too... just different ones.

Exuse me for cutting in but I have to utter a hearty "Bull****!".

You're not "cutting in," you're joining the discussion. Welcome.

I was out of flying for 15 years after flying every day for various part 135
outfits.

I had a somewhat similar experience. I could not afford to fly at my
expense when I got out of the marine corps after six years and went
back to college then had a mortgage and four kids to feed.

Seventeen years later my two boys got out of school and enlisted.
Suddenly there was money left at the end of the month! I could afford
to start flying again.

The difference was amazing. I had never seen a VOR or an ILS. I had
never heard "...radar contact seven miles north of...."

I had to learn the new instruments and the new rules. But it was a
hell of a lot easier! IFR flying was now child's play compared to
what it had been in the days of Acock ranges and ADF approaches.

In a similar way, GPS has made it a hell of a lot easier.

I probably only use 10% of what that GPS is capable of doing.

True of me, too. But that's all the new private pilot who ''needs" a
GPS would use, too.

vince norris

Vincent,

I probably only use 10% of what that GPS is capable of doing.

True of me, too. But that's all the new private pilot who ''needs" a
GPS would use, too.


Right. Just like running the engine at 10 percent power, closing the
doors only 10 percent, landing well only 10 percent of the time and so
on.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I agree. Anyone who thinks using a GPS correctly in the context of aerial
navigation is like turning on an electric light needs some dual on the
basics of what constitutes proper flight instruction .
I take particular notice of the following comment from the same source;

"And if you
have been flying long, you know that a new pilot with a GPS will
quickly become dependent and will never develop pilotage skills.

It's common knowledge that many recently trained pilots have not
learned to navigate well. It's often been discussed here."

Whether this comment is true or false in its entirety isn't my main concern
..

What concerns me is the first part of this comment which states a habit
pattern as fact that I have not seen in properly trained pilots in all the
years I've been associated with flight instruction.

I totally disagree with the idea that new pilots using a GPS will quickly
become dependent and will never develop pilotage skills.
Any pilot properly trained will have been taught basic piloting skills and
know how to use them. That pilot will also, if using a GPS, have been
instructed in the proper use of a GPS in the TOTAL CONTEXT of the aerial
navigation problem. That properly trained pilot will be using his/her GPS
with all the backup associated with it's proper use.
There is absolutely no basis in fact that I have seen anyway, that
pre-supposes a new pilot will use a GPS at the expense of normal backup
navigation skills.
Any properly trained pilot will consider a GPS as just another tool to be
used accordingly and ALONG WITH the other necessary navigation tools
available to produce a safe flight.
Now if we're talking improperly trained pilots........that's another story!
:-))
Dudley Henriques




"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. ..
vincent p. norris wrote:
The statement that using a GPS is a "skill" is almost humorous. Using
a GPS demands only slightly more skill than turning on an electric
light.


Exuse me for cutting in but I have to utter a hearty "Bull****!".

I was out of flying for 15 years after flying every day for various part
135 outfits. Let me tell you, today's panel looks different from what I
was used to. I climbed into a retrofitted C-172 for my BFR last year when
I started flying again and found that although I had several hundred hours
in C-172s that I couldn't figure out the panel. I could fly the airplane
just fine... but I couldn't figure out how to change frequencies, etc.
The primary radio in that airplane happened to be a Garmin 430.

I ended up taking dual *just* on the Garmin; then buying a manual and
installing a GPS sim on my computer. I learned how to do a few things
with it but don't fly enough any more to retain the lesser used functions.
I probably only use 10% of what that GPS is capable of doing.

Don't tell me that operating the GPS doesn't require skills.

I say that while still remembering how to navigate with just a map and the
compass and I can still fly a very decent ILS or ADF approach. Those
require skills too... just different ones.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Anyone who thinks using a GPS correctly in the context of
aerial navigation is like turning on an electric light needs some dual on the
basics of what constitutes proper flight instruction .

I have a pretty good idea of what constitutes proper flight
instruction, Dud; mine was courtesy of the United States Navy. I
understand it's generally considered a fairly rigorous program.

I take particular notice of the following comment from the same
source;

It's common knowledge that many recently trained pilots have not
learned to navigate well. It's often been discussed here."

Whether this comment is true or false in its entirety isn't my main
concern.

That is the essential notion being discussed here, Dud. You're
changing the subject. And if it's not your main concern, why do you
take particular notice of it?

Any pilot properly trained will have been taught basic piloting skills
and know how to use them.

You're begging the question, saying a properly trained pilot has been
properly trained. Duh!

Why would a brand-new private pilot who was "properly trained," and
has confidence in his ability to navigate by DR and Pilotage, think
that the first thing he needs is a GPS?

There is absolutely no basis in fact that I have seen anyway, that
pre-supposes a new pilot will use a GPS at the expense of normal
backup navigation skills.

You seem to have it backwards. It's the GPS that is supposed to be
the "backup."

Any properly trained pilot…..

Now if we're talking improperly trained pilots........that's another
story!

We are. Some young pilots I've talked with in recent years cannot get
from here to there without using VORs. If they depend VORs to navigate
in VMC, you expect me to believe they won't depend on GPS, which is
even easier?

I strongly suspect some young CFIs are not very good at pilotage
either.

Don't forget, Dud, that 50% of all CFIs are below average. ((:-))

vince norris

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
Anyone who thinks using a GPS correctly in the context of
aerial navigation is like turning on an electric light needs some dual on
the
basics of what constitutes proper flight instruction .

I have a pretty good idea of what constitutes proper flight
instruction, Dud; mine was courtesy of the United States Navy. I
understand it's generally considered a fairly rigorous program.

I have no problem with Navair, and the training you have received or not
received is not at issue here.What I'm addressing is your statement that
asserts something as fact that I don't believe is fact based on my direct
exposure to the environment in which you have chosen to assert yourself;
that being the training environment from the instructor's side of the coin.
The simple truth is that you have stated the following;

" if you have been flying long, you know that a new pilot with a GPS will
quickly become dependent and will never develop pilotage skills."

......and I take exception to that. It's simply not true enough to be
presented as a glittering generalization like this.
In my experience as an instructor over time, the exact opposite would be
indicated unless the pilot in question was trained improperly. You are
attempting to convey with this statement that a new pilot with a GPS is
likely to become dependent on that GPS. My contention is that any properly
trained pilot will use a GPS simply as one more available tool to be used in
conjuction with other navigational skills, pilotage being one of these
skills.

I take particular notice of the following comment from the same
source;

It's common knowledge that many recently trained pilots have not
learned to navigate well. It's often been discussed here."

Whether this comment is true or false in its entirety isn't my main
concern.

That is the essential notion being discussed here, Dud. You're
changing the subject. And if it's not your main concern, why do you
take particular notice of it?

I'm not changing the subject. The subject I addressed in my initial post was
simply an opposition comment to your direct statement. My comment was
direct, in context, and to the point.


Any pilot properly trained will have been taught basic piloting skills
and know how to use them.

You're begging the question, saying a properly trained pilot has been
properly trained. Duh!

Quite to the contrary, it is YOUR statement that a new pilot who has a GPS
in his/her navigational equation will become dependent on that GPS to the
point of not developing normal navigational skills that begs the question;
"has this pilot been properly trained?"

I'm begging nothing. I'm telling you that any properly trained pilot will
have been trained to use all the navigational skills especially the basics
and the backups to the basics, and will have been taught to develop the
habit patterns necessary to use those skills.
For you to pre-suppose that the insertion of a GPS into such a pilot's
navigational environment would cause that pilot to neglect all that he/she
has been trained to do is in my opinion patently absurd on it's face.

Why would a brand-new private pilot who was "properly trained," and
has confidence in his ability to navigate by DR and Pilotage, think
that the first thing he needs is a GPS?
A "properly trained pilot" thinking the "first thing he needs is a GPS" is
the oxymoron of the day.
The fact is that NO properly trained pilot will NEED a GPS. The GPS, as I
have sated for the properly trained pilot, will be simply an additional
navigational tool to be used in conjection with whatever backup is necessary
for that GPS to produce a safe flight under the conditions present
concerning that flight.

There is absolutely no basis in fact that I have seen anyway, that
pre-supposes a new pilot will use a GPS at the expense of normal
backup navigation skills.

You seem to have it backwards. It's the GPS that is supposed to be
the "backup."

Actually, since I've been saying from the onset of this discussion that the
GPS is in fact just one more navigational tool, it appears that it might be
you who has things backwards :-)

Any properly trained pilot...

Now if we're talking improperly trained pilots........that's another
story!

We are. Some young pilots I've talked with in recent years cannot get
from here to there without using VORs. If they depend VORs to navigate
in VMC, you expect me to believe they won't depend on GPS, which is
even easier?

I have no doubt that there are pilots out here who rely on one basic system
for navigation and that doing this is bad juju, be it VOR, ADF, of GPS for
that matter. No one is arguing that issue. These pilots exist as we all
know. I am arguing your statement that this type of pilot constitutes a
majority
as you indicate with your use of the phrase "a new pilot with a GPS will
quickly become dependent"
You are taking what I consider the exception and projecting that exception
as the rule, and in my opinion, you are wrong. Hence the opening discourse
on what constitutes proper training.

I strongly suspect some young CFIs are not very good at pilotage
either.

I wouldn't argue this. Notice you correctly used the word "some".

Don't forget, Dud, that 50% of all CFIs are below average. ((:-))

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of flight instructors.

Dudley Henriques

Dudley,

Don't forget, Dud, that 50% of all CFIs are below average. ((:-))

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of flight instructors.


Uhm, Vince is alluding to the surprise of President Roosevelt (I think)
about the fact that 50 percent of the US population had (and have) a
below-average intelligence. This, as Vince's statement, is inherent in
the definition of "average" - well, not exactly, I know, but kind of,
assuming an equal distribution around the average.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

In article ,
Thomas Borchert wrote:

Uhm, Vince is alluding to the surprise of President Roosevelt (I think)
about the fact that 50 percent of the US population had (and have) a
below-average intelligence.

Given that time frame, are you implying that the "dumb" ones immigrated
from Europe to North America while the "smart" ones stayed in Europe?
:-))