What have we learned from all this?

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:19:35 -0800, Gregg Ballou wrote:

Blindness being reported as a vaccine side effect
https://principia-scientific.com/uk-...ocking-report-
on-covid-vaccine-side-effects/

If you believe anything that bunch of climate sceptics have to say about
COVID vaccines, I have this really nice bridge over the East River going
cheap....



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 4:26:37 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:19:35 -0800, Gregg Ballou wrote:

Blindness being reported as a vaccine side effect
https://principia-scientific.com/uk-...ocking-report-
on-covid-vaccine-side-effects/
If you believe anything that bunch of climate sceptics have to say about
COVID vaccines, I have this really nice bridge over the East River going
cheap....
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Article links to the gov't source for their claims. Is the gov't wrong? Some truth hungry provaxxer needs to go check that the article didn't misreport the gov't's reports while they can still see. Funny how people attack the messenger for passing on government vaccine data.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 13:40:06 -0800, Gregg Ballou wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 4:26:37 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:19:35 -0800, Gregg Ballou wrote:

Blindness being reported as a vaccine side effect
https://principia-scientific.com/uk-...ases-shocking-
report-
on-covid-vaccine-side-effects/
If you believe anything that bunch of climate sceptics have to say
about COVID vaccines, I have this really nice bridge over the East
River going cheap....
--
Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Article links to the gov't source for their claims. Is the gov't wrong?
Some truth hungry provaxxer needs to go check that the article didn't
misreport the gov't's reports while they can still see. Funny how
people attack the messenger for passing on government vaccine data.

I've read the references Yellow Card report: did you?

With a bit over 12 million first vaccinations and around 600,000 2nd
shots, it reports some 168 anaphylaxis (severe allergy) reactions, no
proven cases of Bell's Palsy and 403 ADRs (Adverse Drug Reaction). No
other specifically identified side effects were identified, though
apparently the Pfizer vaccine has more reactions to its shots than the
Oxford/AstraZenica vaccine.

There is no mention of any associated blindness and, indeed, scanning the
complete report for 'blind', 'blindness', 'eye', 'optic' and 'visual'
found no hits at all, so it seems that any claims of associated blindness
are purest bull****.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Saturday, 27 February 2021 at 22:24:14 UTC, Martin Gregorie wrote:
...
There is no mention of any associated blindness and, indeed, scanning the
complete report for 'blind', 'blindness', 'eye', 'optic' and 'visual'
found no hits at all, so it seems that any claims of associated blindness
are purest bull****.
I agree, but strangely, in that page, Chrome text search (ctrl/F) reported two hits for "blind" (yes, yes, without the quotes!), but couldn't actually find either!
Clearly, a tool built for trolls!
J.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:40:09 -0800, wrote:

On Saturday, 27 February 2021 at 22:24:14 UTC, Martin Gregorie wrote:
...
There is no mention of any associated blindness and, indeed, scanning
the complete report for 'blind', 'blindness', 'eye', 'optic' and
'visual' found no hits at all, so it seems that any claims of
associated blindness are purest bull****.
I agree, but strangely, in that page, Chrome text search (ctrl/F)
reported two hits for "blind" (yes, yes, without the quotes!), but
couldn't actually find either!
Clearly, a tool built for trolls!
J.

I did discover where those snippets of disease tables came from - there
are appendices associated with both vaccine types that go on for pages
and, as far as I can tell from there preliminary boilerplate, are saying
in effect that 'people visiting a medic after having a vaccination shot
were found to have these conditions' but there is absolutely no
indication whether these were pre-existing conditions, and so not
associated with being vaccinated. Seeing that the main report didn't
mention them, any connection seems unlikely and the association of
blindness with a vaccine, if it exists at all, is very slight at under
1:120,000 or 0.0008 %.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Gregg Ballou wrote on 2/27/2021 1:40 PM:
On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 4:26:37 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:19:35 -0800, Gregg Ballou wrote:

Blindness being reported as a vaccine side effect
https://principia-scientific.com/uk-...ocking-report-
on-covid-vaccine-side-effects/
If you believe anything that bunch of climate sceptics have to say about
COVID vaccines, I have this really nice bridge over the East River going
cheap....
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Article links to the gov't source for their claims. Is the gov't wrong? Some truth hungry provaxxer needs to go check that the article didn't misreport the gov't's reports while they can still see. Funny how people attack the messenger for passing on government vaccine data.


It's quite reasonable to admonish the messenger when the messenger passes on something to
provoke rather than inform, or perhaps even to misinform. Sometimes it's called "trolling".

--
hEric Greewell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Tuesday, February 23, 2021 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Paul B wrote on 2/22/2021 7:28 PM:
On Sunday, 21 February 2021 at 11:10:09 pm UTC+10, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Paul B wrote on 2/20/2021 9:18 PM:
"About 8000 people die every day. In a population of 56 million people (the number vaccinated so
far), primarily over 65 and a large number that have comorbidities, there will be quite a few
that die within a few days or weeks of the vaccination."

Fully agree, however the same logic was not applied to covid-19, I wonder why?

Cheers

Paul



On Sunday, 21 February 2021 at 2:50:15 pm UTC+10, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Gregg Ballou wrote on 2/19/2021 5:30 AM:
The Vaers data is out there for those that care to look beyond the fake news.
"We all know that the rooster crows before the dawn, but we don’t think the rooster makes the
sun come up, simply because they are related in time".

About 8000 people die every day. In a population of 56 million people (the number vaccinated so
far), primarily over 65 and a large number that have comorbidities, there will be quite a few
that die within a few days or weeks of the vaccination.

Don't blame the rooster for the sunrise - get vaccinated so we can continue to argue about
purity and motorgliders :^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "logic was not applied to Covid-19". But, Covid caused so
many deaths, it altered the normal death rate enough to be be noticed; ie, "excess deaths",
especially in the retirement and nursing homes in the beginning. People that believe normal
deaths are being misreported as Covid cases are ignoring these excess deaths, and also the fact
that hospitals are being overwhelmed by Covid deaths, not the usual causes.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I am not disputing that the fact Covid-19 may caused death of some and hasten an impeding death of others.

My point was simply that different criteria are being used when when ascribing causality. As an example, if someone dies at 90 and may have had covid-19, it is counted as a covid-19 death without qualification. If the same person died following an Covid-19 injection, suddenly, the age and potential comorbidities are taken into account.
I am not an antivaxxer I have had all the shots, as did my children. I even partake in the flu shot. However none of these vaccines were developed at this speed and had so little testing. You simply cannot do a multi year longitudinal study in ten months. So clearly in terms of testing, corners were cut.

You mention the excess deaths, and I am looking at these numbers also, as I feel that those numbers should be least able to be manipulated. However the picture is not that clear. For one, it will probably be a number of years before the true numbers are in and potentially longer to examine the exces deaths that happened in subsequent years because of the reaction to covid-19, not because of it.

Finally, the immediate projection of excess death from the CDC website is also problematic. The US had a near linear increase in the number of deaths per 1000 over the last 5 years. Yet the CDC chose to average the the number of deaths over the last 5 years and then add some 100000 to that number for "slow reporting". If they chose to extrapolate the likely deaths, you would have an entirely different numbers of excess death. The results and methodology is on CDC website.
I do not see the death determination being so different. Here in Washington State, death
attribution to Covid-19 requires a positive test and symptoms, and the reports include
information on comorbidities. My understanding is even more care is used to determine the cause
of deaths following vaccination, but even if you attribute all of them to the vaccine, it is
still a much smaller rate than deaths from infection.

The excess deaths are so great, we are not faced with teasing out a weak signal from a noisy
data set. There are times the excess deaths exceeded 30%! We can discuss the best way to
determine what the "normal" death rate should be, but that is a refinement that doesn't change
the big pictu people are dying at a high rate from Covid-19, and not from vaccinations.

This article shows how the excess deaths for the US are easily seen the in the data, as of
2/17/2021:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...eath-toll.html
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

What I see in that data is that Florida, that never locked down, was tied for 39th in that list. This tells me that lockdowns don't work. Also, excess deaths are due to all extraordinary events, not just COVID. There are apparently side effects (i.e. excess deaths) that are the direct result of lockdowns, which explains why Florida is so far down the list.

Tom

On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 10:53:42 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2021 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Paul B wrote on 2/22/2021 7:28 PM:
On Sunday, 21 February 2021 at 11:10:09 pm UTC+10, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Paul B wrote on 2/20/2021 9:18 PM:
"About 8000 people die every day. In a population of 56 million people (the number vaccinated so
far), primarily over 65 and a large number that have comorbidities, there will be quite a few
that die within a few days or weeks of the vaccination."

Fully agree, however the same logic was not applied to covid-19, I wonder why?

Cheers

Paul



On Sunday, 21 February 2021 at 2:50:15 pm UTC+10, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Gregg Ballou wrote on 2/19/2021 5:30 AM:
The Vaers data is out there for those that care to look beyond the fake news.
"We all know that the rooster crows before the dawn, but we don’t think the rooster makes the
sun come up, simply because they are related in time".

About 8000 people die every day. In a population of 56 million people (the number vaccinated so
far), primarily over 65 and a large number that have comorbidities, there will be quite a few
that die within a few days or weeks of the vaccination.

Don't blame the rooster for the sunrise - get vaccinated so we can continue to argue about
purity and motorgliders :^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "logic was not applied to Covid-19". But, Covid caused so
many deaths, it altered the normal death rate enough to be be noticed; ie, "excess deaths",
especially in the retirement and nursing homes in the beginning. People that believe normal
deaths are being misreported as Covid cases are ignoring these excess deaths, and also the fact
that hospitals are being overwhelmed by Covid deaths, not the usual causes.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I am not disputing that the fact Covid-19 may caused death of some and hasten an impeding death of others.

My point was simply that different criteria are being used when when ascribing causality. As an example, if someone dies at 90 and may have had covid-19, it is counted as a covid-19 death without qualification. If the same person died following an Covid-19 injection, suddenly, the age and potential comorbidities are taken into account.
I am not an antivaxxer I have had all the shots, as did my children. I even partake in the flu shot. However none of these vaccines were developed at this speed and had so little testing. You simply cannot do a multi year longitudinal study in ten months. So clearly in terms of testing, corners were cut.

You mention the excess deaths, and I am looking at these numbers also, as I feel that those numbers should be least able to be manipulated. However the picture is not that clear. For one, it will probably be a number of years before the true numbers are in and potentially longer to examine the exces deaths that happened in subsequent years because of the reaction to covid-19, not because of it.

Finally, the immediate projection of excess death from the CDC website is also problematic. The US had a near linear increase in the number of deaths per 1000 over the last 5 years. Yet the CDC chose to average the the number of deaths over the last 5 years and then add some 100000 to that number for "slow reporting". If they chose to extrapolate the likely deaths, you would have an entirely different numbers of excess death. The results and methodology is on CDC website.
I do not see the death determination being so different. Here in Washington State, death
attribution to Covid-19 requires a positive test and symptoms, and the reports include
information on comorbidities. My understanding is even more care is used to determine the cause
of deaths following vaccination, but even if you attribute all of them to the vaccine, it is
still a much smaller rate than deaths from infection.

The excess deaths are so great, we are not faced with teasing out a weak signal from a noisy
data set. There are times the excess deaths exceeded 30%! We can discuss the best way to
determine what the "normal" death rate should be, but that is a refinement that doesn't change
the big pictu people are dying at a high rate from Covid-19, and not from vaccinations.

This article shows how the excess deaths for the US are easily seen the in the data, as of
2/17/2021:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...eath-toll.html
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
What I see in that data is that Florida, that never locked down, was tied for 39th in that list. This tells me that lockdowns don't work. Also, excess deaths are due to all extraordinary events, not just COVID. There are apparently side effects (i.e. excess deaths) that are the direct result of lockdowns, which explains why Florida is so far down the list.

Tom
Florida had more of a lockdown than you may realize, although not like some states. In the beginning of the pandemic there were mandatory closings of certain types of businesses, bars, barber shops, beauty parlors, and many others including some dental services were affected. Florida did in fact become a hotbed for the virus, simply because of the people coming into the state from other areas. At one point Florida was leading the nation on new COVID cases.
Our glider club almost came to a standstill and still to this day has not recovered back to 100%. We do in fact have an older population in the club, I guess that simply explains the limited participation, the disease was having a bigger effect on our demographics than any other. Yes, there were those deaths contributed to COVID that were NOT COVID deaths, being killed in a motorcycle accident but yet testing positive for COVID should not have counted, but it did.
Trying to get a vaccination in Florida has been difficult to say the least, and yes it is getting a lot better. People were flocking to Florida from all over the nation and other countries to get a COVID vaccination, that nightmare was quickly corrected and proof of Florida residency was requested, but as always there were those that tricked the system. After several weeks of day and night of trying to sign up for a vaccination I was successful and had to travel two plus hours to get my first jab, next Saturday will be my second jab.
Things are returning toward normality but no where near pre COVID levels, restaurants, bars, healthcare facilities, and most every business has changed their person to person interactions. We still wear mask even at the glider club, although it is not mandatory, but people gather outside and stay safe distances away.
So, I ask this question once again, just what have we learned from all this?
We learned that COVID was used as a political ploy, which resulted in our country electing a guy who cannot remember where he is from day to day.
Well, at least the soaring weather is getting better here in Florida, actually it is about time. Bob, Vero Beach, Florida

On Saturday, 27 February 2021 at 21:40:08 UTC, Gregg Ballou wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 4:26:37 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:19:35 -0800, Gregg Ballou wrote:

Blindness being reported as a vaccine side effect
https://principia-scientific.com/uk-...ocking-report-
on-covid-vaccine-side-effects/
If you believe anything that bunch of climate sceptics have to say about
COVID vaccines, I have this really nice bridge over the East River going
cheap....
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Article links to the gov't source for their claims. Is the gov't wrong? Some truth hungry provaxxer needs to go check that the article didn't misreport the gov't's reports while they can still see. Funny how people attack the messenger for passing on government vaccine data.

Something on the website of the Royal National Institute for the Blind says that over 24,000 new people in the UK are given a certificate of visual impairment each year

That averages about 65 a day

So, using a mixture of statistics and pure chance, how many would you expect to see in a randomly chosen sample group that increases in size from zero to 20 million in about 60 days? Maybe 500-600?

Even if the numbers reported in the documents you are referring to come out smaller than that, it doesn't mean the vaccines reduce the natural odds. Note the qualifying comment that these are only reports that people sent in, they wondered if they were affected, it doesn't actually prove a connection.

I think I've been affected by the vaccine. I'm starting to think Nancy
Pelosi is attractive. Maybe I'll rip out my eyes and blame my blindness
on the vaccine...

Dan
5J

On 2/28/21 5:45 AM, andy l wrote:
On Saturday, 27 February 2021 at 21:40:08 UTC, Gregg Ballou wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 4:26:37 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:19:35 -0800, Gregg Ballou wrote:

Blindness being reported as a vaccine side effect
https://principia-scientific.com/uk-...ocking-report-
on-covid-vaccine-side-effects/
If you believe anything that bunch of climate sceptics have to say about
COVID vaccines, I have this really nice bridge over the East River going
cheap....
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Article links to the gov't source for their claims. Is the gov't wrong? Some truth hungry provaxxer needs to go check that the article didn't misreport the gov't's reports while they can still see. Funny how people attack the messenger for passing on government vaccine data.

Something on the website of the Royal National Institute for the Blind says that over 24,000 new people in the UK are given a certificate of visual impairment each year

That averages about 65 a day

So, using a mixture of statistics and pure chance, how many would you expect to see in a randomly chosen sample group that increases in size from zero to 20 million in about 60 days? Maybe 500-600?

Even if the numbers reported in the documents you are referring to come out smaller than that, it doesn't mean the vaccines reduce the natural odds. Note the qualifying comment that these are only reports that people sent in, they wondered if they were affected, it doesn't actually prove a connection.

In the old days some people used to say that wanking causes blindness.