new instrument PTS

Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

On 11/13/04 8:58 PM, in article ,
" wrote:

Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

I took my checkride back in August and my examiner covered the GPS with a
Post-It during partial panel so I couldn't use the map or the compass
portion.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Well, that would have been improper for the examiner to do that, since
it was not called for on the PTS, and the examiner is bound by the PTS
just as much as the applicant is.

What I am asking about is the PTS effective 10/1. There are some
changes and I am not sure exactly what the wording means.


On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:59:21 -0500, Wizard of Draws
wrote:

On 11/13/04 8:58 PM, in article ,
" wrote:

Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

I took my checkride back in August and my examiner covered the GPS with a
Post-It during partial panel so I couldn't use the map or the compass
portion.

wrote in message
...
Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel
approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving
map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean
that the GPS must be turned off.

If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach.
If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with
the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the
GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically
told them not to.

Thanks that's pretty much the way I understood it.

I missed the part about turning off the GPS during partial panel.
I'll have to go back and read it again.




On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel
approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving
map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean
that the GPS must be turned off.

If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach.
If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with
the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the
GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically
told them not to.

I went back and re-read the PTS.

I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn
off the moving map.

It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic
flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation
system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an
examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio
of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel
testing, as near as I can see.

Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there?



On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel
approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving
map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean
that the GPS must be turned off.

If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach.
If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with
the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the
GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically
told them not to.

Under PTS section VII Area of Operation: Emergency Operation Task D,
objective #3 states that the applicant: "Demonstrates a nonprecision
instrument approach withoutthe use of the primary flight instrument using
the objectives of the nonprecision approach TASK (AREA OF OPERATION VI, TASK
A)."

If you read Area of Operation VI, Task A, it states that the applicant
"Selects, tunes, identifies, and confirms the operationals tatus of
navigation equipment to be used for the approach procedure." Sure the
examiner could fail a nav/com. If the aircraft has two radios, the
applicant should be prepared to fly the approach and identify intersections
with a single radio, unless the approach specifically requires the aircraft
to be equipted with two NAV radios.

The reality is that this is a discussion you should have with the local
examiner. Presuming you are a CFII, you should have a relationship with the
examiner that allows you to confirm these situations. Different examiners
have different philiosphies on such manners, and as we established, it isn't
well clarified in the PTS.

Hope that Helps,

Brad Z.

wrote in message
...

I went back and re-read the PTS.

I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn
off the moving map.

It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic
flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation
system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an
examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio
of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel
testing, as near as I can see.

Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there?



On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel
approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or
moving
map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean
that the GPS must be turned off.

If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS
approach.
If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown
with
the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use
the
GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically
told them not to.

A GPS is not, I don't believe, a "primary flight instrument". It is a
navigational instrument.

The examiner can have all the philosophies he wants, but he is, in the
final analysis, bound by the PTS. He isn't there to create his own
personal practical test standards. In fact this wording is in the
PTS: "Adherence to the provisions of the regulations and the
practical test standards is mandatory for evaluation of instrument
pilot applicants."

Therefore, an applicant would have grounds to challenge the results of
a test if he were failed for nonperformance of a task not conducted in
accordance with the PTS. If one of my students were failed for a task
not conducted according to the PTS, I would be knocking at the door of
the local FSDO the same day, and I wager I would prevail.

As far as I know, the test is supposed to be conducted with any
instrumentation installed in the aircraft, except for the partial
panel task, which specifies loss of "primary flight instruments",
which are defined as the attitude indicator and dg, or "electronic
flight instruments". ( the electronic equivalent, presumably. )

Everything else shoule be available to the applicant, as far as I
know. If there is an examiner lurking with contrary information, I
would love to know the source which says that the examiner if free to
fail instruments at his pleasure, not in accordance with the PTS.






On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:43:50 -0500, "Brad Zeigler"
wrote:

Under PTS section VII Area of Operation: Emergency Operation Task D,
objective #3 states that the applicant: "Demonstrates a nonprecision
instrument approach withoutthe use of the primary flight instrument using
the objectives of the nonprecision approach TASK (AREA OF OPERATION VI, TASK
A)."

If you read Area of Operation VI, Task A, it states that the applicant
"Selects, tunes, identifies, and confirms the operationals tatus of
navigation equipment to be used for the approach procedure." Sure the
examiner could fail a nav/com. If the aircraft has two radios, the
applicant should be prepared to fly the approach and identify intersections
with a single radio, unless the approach specifically requires the aircraft
to be equipted with two NAV radios.

The reality is that this is a discussion you should have with the local
examiner. Presuming you are a CFII, you should have a relationship with the
examiner that allows you to confirm these situations. Different examiners
have different philiosphies on such manners, and as we established, it isn't
well clarified in the PTS.

Hope that Helps,

Brad Z.

wrote in message
.. .

I went back and re-read the PTS.

I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn
off the moving map.

It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic
flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation
system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an
examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio
of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel
testing, as near as I can see.

Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there?



On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel
approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or
moving
map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean
that the GPS must be turned off.

If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS
approach.
If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown
with
the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use
the
GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically
told them not to.

I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn
off the moving map.

I agree. The moving map is not a flight instrument.

Why don't you be proactive and call the FSDO now with your question? I'm
sure an inspector can answer your question and cite justification pro or
con. That way if your student busts a checkride due to a failed GPS, you
can quote the inspector. Otherwise, you can sort through the documents on
the following link and get your answer:
http://av-info.faa.gov/default.asp?PG=Designee

wrote in message
...


A GPS is not, I don't believe, a "primary flight instrument". It is a
navigational instrument.

The examiner can have all the philosophies he wants, but he is, in the
final analysis, bound by the PTS. He isn't there to create his own
personal practical test standards. In fact this wording is in the
PTS: "Adherence to the provisions of the regulations and the
practical test standards is mandatory for evaluation of instrument
pilot applicants."

Therefore, an applicant would have grounds to challenge the results of
a test if he were failed for nonperformance of a task not conducted in
accordance with the PTS. If one of my students were failed for a task
not conducted according to the PTS, I would be knocking at the door of
the local FSDO the same day, and I wager I would prevail.

As far as I know, the test is supposed to be conducted with any
instrumentation installed in the aircraft, except for the partial
panel task, which specifies loss of "primary flight instruments",
which are defined as the attitude indicator and dg, or "electronic
flight instruments". ( the electronic equivalent, presumably. )

Everything else shoule be available to the applicant, as far as I
know. If there is an examiner lurking with contrary information, I
would love to know the source which says that the examiner if free to
fail instruments at his pleasure, not in accordance with the PTS.






On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:43:50 -0500, "Brad Zeigler"
wrote:

Under PTS section VII Area of Operation: Emergency Operation Task D,
objective #3 states that the applicant: "Demonstrates a nonprecision
instrument approach withoutthe use of the primary flight instrument using
the objectives of the nonprecision approach TASK (AREA OF OPERATION VI,
TASK
A)."

If you read Area of Operation VI, Task A, it states that the applicant
"Selects, tunes, identifies, and confirms the operationals tatus of
navigation equipment to be used for the approach procedure." Sure the
examiner could fail a nav/com. If the aircraft has two radios, the
applicant should be prepared to fly the approach and identify
intersections
with a single radio, unless the approach specifically requires the
aircraft
to be equipted with two NAV radios.

The reality is that this is a discussion you should have with the local
examiner. Presuming you are a CFII, you should have a relationship with
the
examiner that allows you to confirm these situations. Different
examiners
have different philiosphies on such manners, and as we established, it
isn't
well clarified in the PTS.

Hope that Helps,

Brad Z.

wrote in message
.. .

I went back and re-read the PTS.

I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn
off the moving map.

It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic
flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation
system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an
examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio
of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel
testing, as near as I can see.

Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there?



On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS?

For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the
approaches?

No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel
approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or
moving
map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily
mean
that the GPS must be turned off.

If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS
approach.
If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown
with
the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to
use
the
GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has
specifically
told them not to.