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Boeing 737 Maritime aircraft
I was checking out the new Naval Proceedings (I'm a new subscriber) and saw
an advertisement for the 737 as a maritime patrol aircraft complete with hard points and weapons. It looks pretty cool, but I was surprised. Does anyone have it in their present inventory or is it merely a proposal to replace the aging P-3? JD |
#2
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"JD" wrote in message
news:8urBb.348503$ao4.1165781@attbi_s51... I was checking out the new Naval Proceedings (I'm a new subscriber) and saw an advertisement for the 737 as a maritime patrol aircraft complete with hard points and weapons. It looks pretty cool, but I was surprised. Does anyone have it in their present inventory or is it merely a proposal to replace the aging P-3? JD And is the lack of a bomb bay a serious shortfall ? Presumably on newbuild aircraft, the wings would be stressed to carry a heavy load at sea level. Cheers Dave Kearton |
#3
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"Dave Kearton" ) writes:
"JD" wrote in message news:8urBb.348503$ao4.1165781@attbi_s51... I was checking out the new Naval Proceedings (I'm a new subscriber) and saw an advertisement for the 737 as a maritime patrol aircraft complete with hard points and weapons. It looks pretty cool, but I was surprised. Does anyone have it in their present inventory or is it merely a proposal to replace the aging P-3? JD And is the lack of a bomb bay a serious shortfall ? Presumably on newbuild aircraft, the wings would be stressed to carry a heavy load at sea level. Seems to have an weapons bay in this image (artist's rendering) http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/mma-boeing.jpg |
#4
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:14:52 +1030, "Dave Kearton"
wrote: And is the lack of a bomb bay a serious shortfall ? A moot point, since the proposal does indeed have an internal weapons bay. -- Andrew Toppan --- --- "I speak only for myself" "Haze Gray & Underway" - Naval History, DANFS, World Navies Today, Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more - http://www.hazegray.org/ |
#5
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"Andrew Toppan" wrote in message ... On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:14:52 +1030, "Dave Kearton" wrote: And is the lack of a bomb bay a serious shortfall ? A moot point, since the proposal does indeed have an internal weapons bay. -- Andrew Toppan --- --- "I speak only for myself" Yes, thanks - just read that yesterday - learning all the time. Cheers Dave Kearton |
#6
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Dave et al,
THe allocation of missions to the MMA is different than the old P-3. MMA is viewed as part of a set of aircraft including the Broad Area Maritime Surveillanvce UAV and an EP-3 replacement. WHat is called persitent ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance) is allocated to the BAMS UAV. The MMA concentrates on attack missions (ASW, ASUW) and antisubmarine warfare. Boeing has been trying to sell the 737 in some guise as an ASW platform since the 80's. Much of the P-3 mission was flown relatively low and slow and many thought it could not get down in the weeds like a P-3. That has abated somewhat and now flying a 737 for the Navy as MMA looks like an airline pilot career path. Both BAMS and MMA are likely to be competed and selected this year Bob |
#7
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JD wrote:
I was checking out the new Naval Proceedings (I'm a new subscriber) and saw an advertisement for the 737 as a maritime patrol aircraft complete with hard points and weapons. It looks pretty cool, but I was surprised. Does anyone have it in their present inventory or is it merely a proposal to replace the aging P-3? It's one of two candiates for the Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft. The other, from Lock-Mart, is yet another P-3 rebuild called Orion-21. The 737 MMA is based on the 737-800 but has a bunch of modifications, including a -900's wings, heavier gear, and a weapon bay forward of the wing carry-through. Indonesia uses (or at elats used to use) three older 737-200s for maritime surface patrol, with side-looking radar and a camera (plus maybe some SIGINT gear). Obviously MA is more elaborate. -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#8
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Variations of this post have been seen on here about MMA for a few
months now...from an end user, E-1 to MMCO standpoint, the 737 is nothing more than a "cash cow". It doesn't even come close to the capabilities of even a P-3C Update 1, let alone UIII or even AIP. Sure there is a big "technology" improvement, but do we really need it??? I understand the legacy issues (money) of continuing to support the P-3, but spending millions on engines, airframe (CWS) and mission avionics upgrades is much better than spending billions on the MMA 737. How much improvement over current capabilities for USW, ASW, BDA, OTH targeting, and SAR can the MMA promise? I'm sure the cost/benefit analysis figures have been manipulated to show MMA wins, but you can manipulate figures to show whatever you want. Do current MMA proposals prove the 737 is capable of carrying and delivering SLAM-ER, Harpoon, Maverick, Mines, Rockeye, Torpedoes, MK-82-84 and yes Dorothy even Nukes (practicing A10 loads were fun in the 80's while deployed to Japan, we had to go to PI to do them). Hows about SAR? Will the 737 be able to drop supplies/rafts/etc, loiter, slowly for long periods while waiting for maritime rescue? Not to mention FMS, will other countries subsidize the future 737 MMA platforms, like they do with the P3 MPA? Remember the survivability mod on the P3? (foam in the tanks, ALQ-157 Matador, ALQ-158 bugeye antennas, ALE47/49). Is this planned for the 737 MMA? OBTW, is the 737 MMA even capable of flying the MAD profiles that the P3 and even NIMROD fly? Time to take a step back, and stop thinking out of the box. Sometimes it's good to stay in the box and improve on a program thats working and proven succesfull, rather than completely changing it for the sake of Boeing and the FITREPS of the PMA guys (sorry Joe). The best solution would be to go back in time to the late 80's and early 90's and resurrect the P7 LRAACA program, or even the then Lockheed/Boeing proposed P-4. If not that, then spend millions on the current P3 and put new -425 engines, Sundstrand props (look at E2C/T56/8 blade prop), rewing it, and do block upgrades on mission avionics. A big area to look at is the basing and support. All 4 major CPRW bases here in the states have AIMD's and Depot support for the P3, this alone will cost billions to replace. What the F... are you thinking about? Restructuring the entire logistics support to make it contractor support? What about training? Will the 2,500+ Officers and enlisted that go through the NAMTRA's and FASO's annually at Whidbey/JAX/Brunswick all of a sudden go away? Will maintenance all be contract? The big question here is technology improvement and "bang for the buck". I insist the 737 is the wrong way to go for all the above reasons. On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:08:10 GMT, "Thomas Schoene" wrote: JD wrote: I was checking out the new Naval Proceedings (I'm a new subscriber) and saw an advertisement for the 737 as a maritime patrol aircraft complete with hard points and weapons. It looks pretty cool, but I was surprised. Does anyone have it in their present inventory or is it merely a proposal to replace the aging P-3? It's one of two candiates for the Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft. The other, from Lock-Mart, is yet another P-3 rebuild called Orion-21. The 737 MMA is based on the 737-800 but has a bunch of modifications, including a -900's wings, heavier gear, and a weapon bay forward of the wing carry-through. Indonesia uses (or at elats used to use) three older 737-200s for maritime surface patrol, with side-looking radar and a camera (plus maybe some SIGINT gear). Obviously MA is more elaborate. |
#9
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user wrote:
Variations of this post have been seen on here about MMA for a few months now...from an end user, E-1 to MMCO standpoint, the 737 is nothing more than a "cash cow". It doesn't even come close to the capabilities of even a P-3C Update 1, let alone UIII or even AIP. Sure there is a big "technology" improvement, but do we really need it??? I understand the legacy issues (money) of continuing to support the P-3, but spending millions on engines, airframe (CWS) and mission avionics upgrades is much better than spending billions on the MMA 737. How much improvement over current capabilities for USW, ASW, BDA, OTH targeting, and SAR can the MMA promise? I'm sure the cost/benefit analysis figures have been manipulated to show MMA wins, but you can manipulate figures to show whatever you want. Do current MMA proposals prove the 737 is capable of carrying and delivering SLAM-ER, Harpoon, Maverick, Mines, Rockeye, Torpedoes, MK-82-84 and yes Dorothy even Nukes (practicing A10 loads were fun in the 80's while deployed to Japan, we had to go to PI to do them). Hows about SAR? Will the 737 be able to drop supplies/rafts/etc, loiter, slowly for long periods while waiting for maritime rescue? Not to mention FMS, will other countries subsidize the future 737 MMA platforms, like they do with the P3 MPA? Remember the survivability mod on the P3? (foam in the tanks, ALQ-157 Matador, ALQ-158 bugeye antennas, ALE47/49). Is this planned for the 737 MMA? OBTW, is the 737 MMA even capable of flying the MAD profiles that the P3 and even NIMROD fly? Time to take a step back, and stop thinking out of the box. Sometimes it's good to stay in the box and improve on a program thats working and proven succesfull, rather than completely changing it for the sake of Boeing and the FITREPS of the PMA guys (sorry Joe). The best solution would be to go back in time to the late 80's and early 90's and resurrect the P7 LRAACA program, or even the then Lockheed/Boeing proposed P-4. If not that, then spend millions on the current P3 and put new -425 engines, Sundstrand props (look at E2C/T56/8 blade prop), rewing it, and do block upgrades on mission avionics. A big area to look at is the basing and support. All 4 major CPRW bases here in the states have AIMD's and Depot support for the P3, this alone will cost billions to replace. What the F... are you thinking about? Restructuring the entire logistics support to make it contractor support? What about training? Will the 2,500+ Officers and enlisted that go through the NAMTRA's and FASO's annually at Whidbey/JAX/Brunswick all of a sudden go away? Will maintenance all be contract? The big question here is technology improvement and "bang for the buck". I insist the 737 is the wrong way to go for all the above reasons. I am sure there are some good points in there somewhere, but without any organization and paragraphing of your arguments, I'm having a devil of a problem separating them out. You can be sure that Boeing is organizing and paragraphing *their* arguments *for* buying the 737 airframe as a P-3 follow-on, making it easy for the people they are trying to reach [top level DoD/DoN folks and Congress] to read and think about what Boeing is saying. -- OJ III [Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading. Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast] |
#10
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:53:39 GMT, user wrote:
737. How much improvement over current capabilities for USW, ASW, BDA, OTH targeting, and SAR can the MMA promise? (1) More to the point: the replacement aircraft (whatever it is) will be able to fly. The P-3s are excessively old and will soon be unable to do so. Therefore, a replacement in some form is *required*. (2) The capabilities of the replacement aircraft will be different than the capabilities of the P-3. This is quite intentional, since the mission of the P-3 has changed A LOT in recent years. The old mission of hunting Soviet submarines is obsolete. If the aircraft do not adapt, they will not continue to exist. (3) Finally, there's the question of *which* aircraft will fill the MMA role. The 737 is *one* of several proposals. If you don't like the 737, pick one of the others. It seems that you do not understand (1) and (2). And, finally, "change happens". Obviously you do not want change, so you will never be happy, no matter what is done. -- Andrew Toppan --- --- "I speak only for myself" "Haze Gray & Underway" - Naval History, DANFS, World Navies Today, Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more - http://www.hazegray.org/ |
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