Talk About A Rude Company,

Talk to Marv or Delcy at Gorge Winds Aviation in Troutdale. 503.665.2823
I did my instrument ground and practical work through them and passed both
the written and the checkride on the first try in October.

Heck, you could just fly your ol' hoss across the river. If it's not IFR
equipped, they train in a 180hp Cessna 172 that's a really nice plane.
Rates are $80/hr for the airplane and $35/hr for the instructor, but
instruction time comes right off the Hobbes. They do weekend IFR written
prep courses three or four times a year and there's a testing facility
onsite.

Delcy is an Air Force Academy graduate and an officer in the US Air Force
Reserve, and Marv, the FBO owner, is a retired deputy sheriff, former mayor
and retired career Marine. -Really- good people.

Troutdale is a great airport and most of the practice work is out of
Battleground VOR to Scapoose, or Aurora, Hillsboro and McMinnville.

-gattman


"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Almarz" wrote in message
...
In any event, if you don't like ANYTHING about a place where you're
plunking your money down, take it elsewhere! Screw the folks that are
turning it around and blaming it on you. It's all about the CUSTOMER.
When these slobs realize that, they'll be better off. Until then, let
them bitch and complain about how they can't make a living.


Good flight instructors are as picky about their students as good
students
are picky of their flight instructors. If a student gives me the creeps,
is
rude, or has an attitude problem, he can take his business elsewhere.



I agree but its my money I am spending and it had to be earned with hard
work! I have already been shafted once on my private training and had to
go
finish at another flight school witch ended up costing me more money than
I
needed to spend. I guess the education I recived from that experience was
worth the extra money spent. I will not make them mistakes again!

Some flight instructor or fbo is going to get a large chunk of
http://www.warflying.net/money.jpg and its not going to be someone that
don't want to work, is under qualified or a company I feel is not going to
give what they agreed upon. Someone like me that want to fly 3 more hours
per day 5 times a week needs an instructor around that can accommodate my
schedule. I want to make dame sure an instructor will show up on time
also.
The instructor must also have the experience and the knowledge that I seek
to learn from. Being a flight instructor for a living makes you a
business.

I could see flight instructors doing it on the side with little free time
picking and chousing their students but I don't want to here one complaint
on how they are not making any money! If they work an FBO and the FBO
brings
them students then they should not be so picky until they at leased fly
with
the student. Not every one is perfect, not every one learns the material
int
the same way. That is why their are many flight instructors out there.

My first primarry flight instructor was a good instructor but had a bit of
an attitude when you did something wrong and was not calm he scared me a
little.

My second primarry flight instructor was an Excellent Flight instructor
but
worked for a FBO that was not stable and the owners were a bunch of
crooks.
Wish he did not give up flight instruction for the airlines or we would
not
be having this conversation I would have paid him $50.00 or more an hour
to
be able to have him as my instructor for my instrument rating. He did not
hold any of his knowledge or skills back and was a straight forward and
adapted to my learning style.

I have flown with a few other flight instructors, most were not very
professional and will not adapt to my learning style so I am seeking out
other areas to meet my instruction needs.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message

CJ, "NW", and I all fly in roughly the same area. There are numerous
well-qualified schools and instructors here who are perfectly willing to
train students in actual conditions.

Right across the river from NW, I trained in and then passed my exam in IMC.

Piece of cake.

-c

Oh, yeah...and if you have time to burn and still want to save money, check
out the aviation program at Mt Hood Community College. You'd still fly
locally--I still recommend Gorge Winds over the other FBO--but MHCC has an
instrument simulator as well that is $50/hr with instruction.

Having said that, I never used the sim. Now I'm looking at extending my
financial debt to pay for my commercial training. :

-c

Andrew Gideon wrote:
Okay, well, I'll defer to your experience. Most of my non-training
IFR
flights have involved a lot of straight and level, with the
occasional
maneuver mixed in just to keep me awake. For early training, this
seems
like a lot of wasted time. But if you got a lot out of it, then who
am I
to argue?

And maybe you're one of those people who 'got' straight and level right
away, and could hold +/-40 ft and +/-5 degrees in smooth air
immediately and without much effort. Some people can do that, and
probably would not get a lot out of it. However, I do insist on those
fairly tight tolerances (in smooth air only - in rough air it's just
not practical) before we move on to maneuvers because that level of
control will be required for the maneuvers.

To this I should add that my CFII took an instrument student on an
actual
flight that was not as I described above. He flew from CDW to MMU
(about 5
miles), flew multiple approaches, and then went back to CDW.

That's probably some kind of record, but I have taken a student on an
actual flight from DWH to EYQ (9 nm) where we flew three NDB approaches
and landed. Thing is, that would have been overload for a new student.
With a new student, I would have taken him on a short XC (maybe
EYQ-CLL) terminating with a VOR or LOC approach - and I would have
configured the radios and done the communications for him, so that he
would only have to fly the headings and altitudes I gave him, and at
most track a VOR/LOC needle. I will also admit that the workload of
doing that (for me as the instructor) is substantially higher than the
workload of single pilot IFR in IMC with no autopilot.

I'm
astonished that TRACON accomodated this in IMC, but it does show that

actual flying can be set up to involve little straight and level.

TRACON will generally accomodate such requests if traffic permits,
which it usually does at the little airports in lousy weather. You
would be surprised how little traffic there is at the little airports
in hard IFR conditions. Most instrument rated private pilots won't
launch into hard IFR. The busy times are actually those of MVFR -
that's when everyone is up training.

Michael

Andrew Gideon wrote:
snip
: Okay, well, I'll defer to your experience. Most of my non-training IFR
: flights have involved a lot of straight and level, with the occasional
: maneuver mixed in just to keep me awake. For early training, this seems
: like a lot of wasted time. But if you got a lot out of it, then who am I
: to argue?

I should have explained more. In addition to straight and level flying I
also got exposed to the hardest part of IFR flight: preflight decision making.
Anyone can be trained to fly straight and level and fly approaches to the
extent required to pass the practical test. What I learned was the whole
process. Is the weather OK for a limited-capability aircraft? What if
the winds are unfavorable? How far can we go assuming we need an alternate?
Which alternate is the best choice? What is the best routing? Why? Where
are the MOCA low enough to allow for diversions? Do we want to fly a route
that has a MEA at the service ceiling of the A/C? Why not? Etc. (Besides,
I had to get the airplane from VNY to 1B9.) The CFII that I hired was/is
a good friend of mine. He had been flying charter in New England and
Southeastern Canada for a couple years, and was well versed on our
local adverse weather conditions (something I am still weak on).
--
Aaron C.

That's a fair statement that I didn't consider because of my own
experience.

It largely depends on what the student's experience level is. When I
started my IFR training, I had around 200 hours of flight time, mostly
PIC, mostly Cross Country. When I sat down with my instructor and the
syllabus, the first two flights took us through something like Lesson #22
because controlling the plane to IFR PTS tolerances was not an issue.

However, someone who has 75 hours of flight experience of which 65 hours
were training for his PPL is probably not going to be able to start with
the IFR training, and would probably not be a good candidate for
significant flight in the soup. (Flight through some a layer of Scattered
Cumulus might not be a bad thing even at that experience level though.)



Journeyman wrote in
:

In article , Judah wrote:

I could be wrong, but I suspect that most CFIIs prefer to give their
IFR students SOME actual before the training is over. I know several
of the instructors that I have worked with in the past believed
strongly that the sensation of actual is unique for someone who has
sat behind foggles for all of his training, and prefer to be in the
right seat the first time it happens to a student.

I've talked to CFIs who moved to Seattle specifically to get IMC time
for themselves. Of course they'll train in IMC.

OTOH, I'm not sure how eager a CFI would be taking someone up IMC
during the first, oh, 1/3 of the training, where you're just doing
basic attitude flying by instruments.

I remember days early on my IFR training, where we'd file to VFR on
top, get through the cloud layer, do the maneuvers, then shoot an
instrument approach back to base.


Morris

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message

Good flight instructors are as picky about their students as good
students
are picky of their flight instructors. If a student gives me the creeps,
is
rude, or has an attitude problem, he can take his business elsewhere.

It's a good idea to actually meet a potential customer before you pass
judgements on him.

Absolutely. Otherwise how would you know what kind of a guy he is?

Just a thought to pass on to anyone who thinks one customer doesn't mean
anything:

Source: White House Office of Consumer Affairs.
· For every customer who bothers to complain, there are 26 others who remain
silent.
· The average “wronged” customer will tell 8 to 16 people.
· 91% of unhappy customers will never purchase services from you again.
· It costs about fives times as much to attract a new customer as it costs
to keep an old one.
· Bottom Line – For every complaint, there are about 250 more customers with
problems or potential customers who hear bad things about you.

FWIW. We found this to be true in our business. We lived by it.

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

Michael wrote:

TRACON will generally accomodate such requests if traffic permits,
which it usually does at the little airports in lousy weather.

Sure, but our neighborhood includes two pretty heavy GA airports: TEB and
MMU. So I'm - pleasantly - surprised. It just goes to show, I think, that
ATC does work to be accomodating.

- Andrew