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The first roll ever in a non aerobat 150



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 29th 05, 09:27 PM
pittss1c
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Default The first roll ever in a non aerobat 150

The subject is obviously a joke.
Before the alarmists continue on about over stressing the plane for the
next pilot, how many unexplained structural failures (or fatigue
failures) do you find in the accident database for 150s? Is this the
first you ever heard of someone doing mild acro in a 150/2? I would be
willing to bet that that many seasoned acro nuts here have performed a
maneuver not necessary for normal operation in a non-aerobatic airplane.
(maybe it was just a steep wingover)

Sure, it isn't smart, but unfortunately it is quite a common
characteristic of otherwise reasonably smart pilots.

Leave it at, it's dumb and you might get yourself killed.
Of course, plenty of people get themselves killed in acro rated airplanes.

Mike
  #2  
Old May 11th 05, 10:49 AM
samcapt
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I do know one thing, I highly disagree with students being allowed to
conduct stall training on solo flights in the C-150/C-152

his aircraft is spin-happy.



pittss1c wrote:
The subject is obviously a joke.
Before the alarmists continue on about over stressing the plane for

the
next pilot, how many unexplained structural failures (or fatigue
failures) do you find in the accident database for 150s? Is this the
first you ever heard of someone doing mild acro in a 150/2? I would

be
willing to bet that that many seasoned acro nuts here have performed

a
maneuver not necessary for normal operation in a non-aerobatic

airplane.
(maybe it was just a steep wingover)

Sure, it isn't smart, but unfortunately it is quite a common
characteristic of otherwise reasonably smart pilots.

Leave it at, it's dumb and you might get yourself killed.
Of course, plenty of people get themselves killed in acro rated

airplanes.

Mike


  #3  
Old May 11th 05, 08:21 PM
Kizito
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samcapt wrote:

I do know one thing, I highly disagree with students being allowed to
conduct stall training on solo flights in the C-150/C-152

Why? (asks curious student)
  #4  
Old May 12th 05, 04:32 AM
Dudley Henriques
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"Kizito" wrote in message
...
samcapt wrote:

I do know one thing, I highly disagree with students being allowed to
conduct stall training on solo flights in the C-150/C-152

Why? (asks curious student)


The 150 and 152, including the Bat, won't spin at stall unless pro spin
controls are applied and held. You can get a wing drop if your out of rig,
or if power on you're not holding a centered ball, which is easily
recoverable, but without that yaw moment supplied by full rudder, and a full
stall held with back elevator, the airplane at stall is completely normal.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)


  #5  
Old May 12th 05, 09:13 PM
Kizito
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Default

Thanks.
  #6  
Old May 12th 05, 09:46 PM
Kizito
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I am not sure I understand your answer. Is this reluctance to spin at stall
dangerous in its own right or is it because it doesn't prepare you for the
behaviour of other aircraft?
I am learning on the 152 (not yet soloed) and so far have had one session of
stall training but not with spining.

What would be a good plane to do stall training in on a solo fight? Or is
such activity not a good idea in general?

Regards,

Kizito
  #7  
Old May 12th 05, 11:39 PM
Dudley Henriques
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Any airplane built in the normal/utility category will need pro spin
controls applied at stall to enter a spin. The 150 or 152 should be the
perfect airplane for you to practice stalls in solo (after you have been
thoroughly checked out by a competent instructor on stall recoveries of
course)

Normal pre-solo stall training should prepare you for practicing stalls
solo. If you have had this training, solo stalls should be no issue for you.
I don't however advocate you attempting stalls in ANY airplane if you
haven't had proper training in recovery.
Dudley Henriques

"Kizito" wrote in message
...
I am not sure I understand your answer. Is this reluctance to spin at stall
dangerous in its own right or is it because it doesn't prepare you for the
behaviour of other aircraft?
I am learning on the 152 (not yet soloed) and so far have had one session
of
stall training but not with spining.

What would be a good plane to do stall training in on a solo fight? Or is
such activity not a good idea in general?

Regards,

Kizito



  #8  
Old May 13th 05, 06:42 PM
Kizito
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Default

I see. Thanks.

Kizito
  #9  
Old May 14th 05, 04:05 PM
B S D Chapman
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On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:39:29 +0100, Dudley Henriques .net
dhenriques@noware wrote:

Any airplane built in the normal/utility category will need pro spin
controls applied at stall to enter a spin.



I think "WILL NEED" is a very misleading and bland statement!

If you have a fuel imbalance, are flying out of balance, or have ailerons
(reasonably) displaced, one wing WILL stall before the other, you will get
undemanded roll, and that is a sign of the incipient spin. Do nothing
about it, and the full spin may develop before the other wing gets round
to stalling.




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  #10  
Old May 14th 05, 10:13 PM
Dudley Henriques
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"B S D Chapman" mail-at-benchapman-dot-co-dot-uk wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:39:29 +0100, Dudley Henriques .net
dhenriques@noware wrote:

Any airplane built in the normal/utility category will need pro spin
controls applied at stall to enter a spin.



I think "WILL NEED" is a very misleading and bland statement!

If you have a fuel imbalance, are flying out of balance, or have ailerons
(reasonably) displaced, one wing WILL stall before the other, you will get
undemanded roll, and that is a sign of the incipient spin. Do nothing
about it, and the full spin may develop before the other wing gets round
to stalling.


I've never seen a 150 or 152 or the Bat even come close to the scenario you
are describing. The 150 for example has 13 gals of gas in each tank feeding
through gravity and a simple on/off selector. Even with a fuel imbalance,
with two gravity feeding tanks and an on /off selector working a maxium of
13gals of gas in each tank, you would need one hell of a lot more fuel
imbalance than a 150 is capable of producing to cause a yaw/roll couple at
stall :-)
Secondly, as you have correctly said, aileron held in at stall will indeed
drop a wing, and the low descending wing will develop a higher angle of
attack than the outside wing. this is a nose low condition, but unless FULL
BACK ELEVATOR is held through this process, the stall will break and the
airplane will recover nose low without spinning.
All this amounts to is that, if at stall you have a wing low break caused by
any of the conditions you have mentioned , unless pro spin controls are
applied while this process is taking place, these airplanes will recover
nose low. Also naturally, if pro spin controls are applied at stall, by the
pilot, or by any combination of out of rig conditions, an incipient spin can
easily be introduced.
Basically what I said stands. Unless pro spin controls are applied at stall,
the Cessna 150 and 152 series including the Bat won't spin. You can make
them break wing down by the factors you have mentioned, but without that
needed coupling in roll and yaw , (autorotation) all you will get is a nose
low recovery as that back elevator (pro spin) is released. Notice I haven't
stressed elevator here. Without full elevator you break the stall as the
angle of attack decreases below Climax regardless of a wing drop. No
stall......no spin......no back elevator....no stall!
You can stretch the out of rig thing and the fuel imbalance thing into a pro
spin environment of course, but in a Cessna 150, these factors won't
override the lack of pro spin controls being needed as present to produce
spin.
One of the exercises we used to teach our primary aerobatic students in the
Aerobat was a max deflect cross controlled accelerated stall below Va. The
recovery was simply to release the back pressure and nutralize the ailerons.
Nose low recovery every time. Normal recovery with power to level flight
with NO SPIN!!
We never even came close to spinning the airplane in these conditions.

Dudley Henriques


 




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