Accelerated spin in unexpected direction at low altitude

On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 21:08:21 -0700, George Haeh wrote:

I'm not in favor of making a fetish of full spin and recovery. I worry
that emphasis on holding the stick all the way back through a full turn
builds the worst possible muscle memory.

Yes,it's worthwhile demonstrating at altitude, but the ground will most
likely get in the way of a recovery from a spin out of a turn to base or
final. That's where we lose friends. Shears and other nastinesses lurk
at low level.

I put a higher priority on recognition of and immediate recovery from an
incipient spin.

With respect, accelerated spin entry is a bit different because one
moment you aren't spinning and then suddenly you are. I've had one or two
'interesting' departures:

- While I had an early ASW-20 it departed twice without warning from a
thermalling turn - at least I didn't notice any buffet, etc and wasn't
all that slow (45 kts, 40 degree bank), but both times I'd recovered
within 1/4 of a turn, admittedly 35kts faster and 300 ft lower. These
were both into-turn spins.

- Puchacz 1. In one of the spin practice flights our club insists on at
the start of the season and with plenty of height, I tried a recovery
method that was supposed to minimise height loss. That didn't work: all
that happened was that the Puch did a snap reversal of spin
direction. Not a problem: I saw the reversal happen (remarkably
fast), swapped the applied rudder and came out of the spin without any
problems.

- Puchacz 2. Another annual spin practice. This time the instructor
promised me a treat if we were still high after completing the stall
and spin exercise. We were, so he had me set up a thermal-like turn
(this was a cold, overcast day), at 45kts and a 40 degree bank. Then,
he had me snap the stick back centrally and hold it. The Puch pitched
up, did half a wing-over and spun off the top - IIRC it was an
over-the-top entry, but regardless it was immediately spinning - no
hesitation! Again no problem: I recovered within half a turn at most.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan.. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.
Thanks
UH

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 2:26:21 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Bob, N232PC is my N number for a ASW27

Cliff Hilty (CH) ASW 27 formerly Paul Cordell's hence the PC

N numbers can change over the lifetime of an airframe, at least in the US.
New owner? They can apply for a new random or personally chosen (registration) N-number. The only number that remains with the machine throughout its life is the factory serial number. And sometimes, if there is a damage incident -- major components from one wreck might make it onto the other parts of another airframe. Hence a fuselage wtih one serial number and a wing or elevator with a differing serial number. Changes of that significance would hopefully be reflected in the maintenance logs.

Seen this in person,
Cindy B

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 5:29:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing.. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.

I'd assume one resulting from an accelerated stall i.e. a stall at higher speed than the normal straight and level stall speed, due to G loading.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 5:29:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react.

Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.
Thanks
UH

"Accelerated spin" ? No such thing unless you wanted to quantify rotation rate.
I think what Marty and Andre meant to say was abrupt, unexpected departure.....
or departure from accelerated stall --
but that makes for less storydrama by having a more concise description.

Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(1000m agl). Ever.

Best wishes,

Cindy B

On Tue, 03 Jul 2018 23:36:11 -0700, CindyB wrote:

Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(1000m agl). Ever.

Out of sheer curiosity, why do you say that?

I've been flying gliders for 18 years and have spun the club's Puchacz at
least once in each of those years. Its always done what I expected it to
do apart from the occasional wing drop in an intentional stall and has
never spun when I wasn't expecting it to. Its the one of our club's two
seaters that I most enjoy flying solo.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

It's that one time that will get you....

My bad, mine is 272PC. New to me last August. I have reserved 272CH but not sure its worth the effort to change it

Cliff Hilty (CH) ASW27

Because of the large number that have spun to the ground and killed the occupants perhaps?
The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:38:27 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Because of the large number that have spun to the ground and killed the occupants perhaps?
The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.

And generally with an instructor on board. And not spinning accidentally in the circuit, but spins deliberately initiated at altitude.

They recover just fine 99.99% of the time. But it seems that every so often .. no.