Swift Boat Veterans For Truth: Are They Going To Sink John Kerry?

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...

What's being condemned here is not soft money ads and not negative
ads...and Bush is not being asked to condemn ads just because they are
negative or financed by partisan supporters.

What Bush is being asked to condemn is an ad which is demonstrably false
and obviously deliberately so. The fact that it came from a soft money
group is not relavant.

Got it?


An ad which is demonstrably false and obviously deliberately so would be
easily refuted and the group behind it discredited. Kerry is not even
attempting to do that. Why not?

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

His quoted words in question were not delivered to Congress; he
made that statement instead on national television:


How do you know that?


Because I read the entire transcript of his testimony and did not find the
bit about him acknowledging that he had himself supposedly committed "war
crimes", which was the subject in question?


How do you know that transcript contained all of his statements?



According to The Boston Globe he said it before the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee.


Then the Globe is wrong.


Maybe. The reviewer at The Boston Globe described the work as "
well-researched biographical history". How do we know your research is
better than his?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

His quoted words in question were not delivered to Congress; he
made that statement instead on national television:


How do you know that?


Because I read the entire transcript of his testimony and did not find
the
bit about him acknowledging that he had himself supposedly committed
"war
crimes", which was the subject in question?


How do you know that transcript contained all of his statements?

You know what Steven? I am a pretty firm supporter of Bush, but your
continued catterwalling about this is beginning to make me rethink the
situation...(not really, but if this is how you handle the folks who are
anti-Kerry, then you might want to rethink your strategy or lack thereof).

Yes, it was a complete transcript of his testimony, from gavel to gavel, to
include the questioning posed to him by the committee members. If you are
really interested in reading it yourself, do a Google on "Kerry Vietnam
testimony transcript" and you should be able to find it yourself.




According to The Boston Globe he said it before the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee.


Then the Globe is wrong.


Maybe. The reviewer at The Boston Globe described the work as "
well-researched biographical history". How do we know your research is
better than his?

Go and dig up your own trnscript and read it, then go and read a transcript
of his 18 April 71 "Meet the Press" interview; you will find the quote of
interest in the latter, and not the former. When you have found said
transcript, see if YOU can find the quote in question--if you do, get back
to me and I'll happily apologize (I'd be just tickled if he could be shown
to have made that statement in his testimony as well as on national TV). If
you can't you owe me one, OK? Now toodle off and do your homework and get
back to me. Stop acting as if this is the first time a newspaper has screwed
up in regards to the details. And that is all you are arguing--the details,
since I have already told you that yes, he did say it, but in a different
forum from what you though it to be.

Brooks

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

You know what Steven? I am a pretty firm supporter of Bush, but your
continued catterwalling about this is beginning to make me rethink the
situation...(not really, but if this is how you handle the folks who are
anti-Kerry, then you might want to rethink your strategy or lack thereof).


Whoa, there. Go to your happy place. Count to ten. Calm down. These are
simple questions, they have simple answers.



Yes, it was a complete transcript of his testimony, from gavel to gavel,
to
include the questioning posed to him by the committee members. If you are
really interested in reading it yourself, do a Google on "Kerry Vietnam
testimony transcript" and you should be able to find it yourself.


There are several sources that attribute that quote to the committee. You
come along and say it didn't happen there, it happened somewhere else. If
you're a serious researcher you'll understand my questions and not take
offense at them.



Go and dig up your own trnscript and read it, then go and read a
transcript
of his 18 April 71 "Meet the Press" interview; you will find the quote of
interest in the latter, and not the former. When you have found said
transcript, see if YOU can find the quote in question--if you do, get back
to me and I'll happily apologize (I'd be just tickled if he could be shown
to have made that statement in his testimony as well as on national TV).
If
you can't you owe me one, OK?


Owe you one what?



Now toodle off and do your homework and get
back to me. Stop acting as if this is the first time a newspaper has
screwed
up in regards to the details. And that is all you are arguing--the
details,
since I have already told you that yes, he did say it, but in a different
forum from what you though it to be.


Oh, I know newspapers screw up. I see it all the time. But I don't
conclude that the newspaper has screwed up without good reason. Nor do I
conclude that a Usenet poster has screwed up without good reason. In this
case there was a conflict about a source, how can I find out which is
correct without a few probing questions? It's pretty clear you took these
questions as a personal attack. They were not.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

You know what Steven? I am a pretty firm supporter of Bush, but your
continued catterwalling about this is beginning to make me rethink the
situation...(not really, but if this is how you handle the folks who are
anti-Kerry, then you might want to rethink your strategy or lack
thereof).


Whoa, there. Go to your happy place. Count to ten. Calm down. These
are
simple questions, they have simple answers.

Here is your simple answer:
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/in...opic=Testimony
I did the hard part for you, finding a complete transcript of the
testimony--now all you have to do is wade through the 32-pages of it. Guess
what? You won't find the quote in question. But, if you go to:
http://msnbc.msn.com/ID/4772030/, you will find a copy of the transcript of
Kerry's April 2004 appearance on "Mett the Press" with Tim Russert, and in
there you will further find a snippet from the April 1971 show where Kerry
*did* make the statement in question. Simple enough for you?




Yes, it was a complete transcript of his testimony, from gavel to gavel,
to
include the questioning posed to him by the committee members. If you
are
really interested in reading it yourself, do a Google on "Kerry Vietnam
testimony transcript" and you should be able to find it yourself.


There are several sources that attribute that quote to the committee. You
come along and say it didn't happen there, it happened somewhere else. If
you're a serious researcher you'll understand my questions and not take
offense at them.

You are about as bright as a brick today, Steven. I have given you links to
the transcripts required. All you have to do now is READ them--you can do
that, can't you?




Go and dig up your own trnscript and read it, then go and read a
transcript
of his 18 April 71 "Meet the Press" interview; you will find the quote
of
interest in the latter, and not the former. When you have found said
transcript, see if YOU can find the quote in question--if you do, get
back
to me and I'll happily apologize (I'd be just tickled if he could be
shown
to have made that statement in his testimony as well as on national TV).
If
you can't you owe me one, OK?


Owe you one what?

An apology, for being dense as a rock if nothing else.




Now toodle off and do your homework and get
back to me. Stop acting as if this is the first time a newspaper has
screwed
up in regards to the details. And that is all you are arguing--the
details,
since I have already told you that yes, he did say it, but in a
different
forum from what you though it to be.


Oh, I know newspapers screw up. I see it all the time. But I don't
conclude that the newspaper has screwed up without good reason.

I gave you the good reasons--now go read those transcripts and stop whining.

Brooks

Nor do I
conclude that a Usenet poster has screwed up without good reason. In this
case there was a conflict about a source, how can I find out which is
correct without a few probing questions? It's pretty clear you took these
questions as a personal attack. They were not.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
news

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

You know what Steven? I am a pretty firm supporter of Bush, but your
continued catterwalling about this is beginning to make me rethink the
situation...(not really, but if this is how you handle the folks who
are
anti-Kerry, then you might want to rethink your strategy or lack
thereof).


Whoa, there. Go to your happy place. Count to ten. Calm down. These
are
simple questions, they have simple answers.

Here is your simple answer:
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/in...opic=Testimony
I did the hard part for you, finding a complete transcript of the
testimony--now all you have to do is wade through the 32-pages of it.
Guess
what? You won't find the quote in question. But, if you go to:
http://msnbc.msn.com/ID/4772030/, you will find a copy of the transcript
of
Kerry's April 2004 appearance on "Mett the Press" with Tim Russert, and in
there you will further find a snippet from the April 1971 show where Kerry
*did* make the statement in question. Simple enough for you?




Yes, it was a complete transcript of his testimony, from gavel to
gavel,
to
include the questioning posed to him by the committee members. If you
are
really interested in reading it yourself, do a Google on "Kerry
Vietnam
testimony transcript" and you should be able to find it yourself.


There are several sources that attribute that quote to the committee.
You
come along and say it didn't happen there, it happened somewhere else.
If
you're a serious researcher you'll understand my questions and not take
offense at them.

You are about as bright as a brick today, Steven. I have given you links
to
the transcripts required. All you have to do now is READ them--you can do
that, can't you?




Go and dig up your own trnscript and read it, then go and read a
transcript
of his 18 April 71 "Meet the Press" interview; you will find the quote
of
interest in the latter, and not the former. When you have found said
transcript, see if YOU can find the quote in question--if you do, get
back
to me and I'll happily apologize (I'd be just tickled if he could be
shown
to have made that statement in his testimony as well as on national
TV).
If
you can't you owe me one, OK?


Owe you one what?

An apology, for being dense as a rock if nothing else.


Well, even if I was as dense as a rock, why would I need to apologize to
anyone for that?






Now toodle off and do your homework and get
back to me. Stop acting as if this is the first time a newspaper has
screwed
up in regards to the details. And that is all you are arguing--the
details,
since I have already told you that yes, he did say it, but in a
different
forum from what you though it to be.


Oh, I know newspapers screw up. I see it all the time. But I don't
conclude that the newspaper has screwed up without good reason.

I gave you the good reasons--now go read those transcripts and stop
whining.


Couldn't you have done that the first time I asked?

Why do you need to make an ass of yourself in a public forum?

For Truth: Are They Going To Sink John Kerry?
From: forge
Date: 8/24/2004 12:22 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

In article ,
"Osprey" wrote:

Bush has come out and asked who ever is responsible for those ads to pull
them.

No he bloody has not. All he keeps saying is "we need to get control of
all these hyear 527 groups" without ever specifically referring to Swift
Butt Veterans. It's like he has some kind of bizarre mental block, or
something, and can't know they exist.

Has kerry made any attempt to reign in the 527s and similar activities that
take his side?

Unless and until you call on both candidates to denounce such activities please
don't act as if one side is the agrieved party and the other side is a bully.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: Michael Wise
Date: 8/24/2004 2:41 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(B2431) wrote:

These ads that do little but lie are going to destroy Bush by
portraying
Bush as an immoral slanderer.


Why would that be? Bush has nothing to do with those ads.

Bush _himself_, perhaps. Bush's _organization_ had plenty to
do with them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/po...n/20swift.html


There's nothing on that page that demonstrates Bush's _organization_ had
anything to do with those ads.

No, just lots of Bush friends were involved.


And lots of kerry's friends are involved with anti Bush ads. Do you see
kerry
condemning them?



What's being condemned here is not soft money ads and not negative
ads...and Bush is not being asked to condemn ads just because they are
negative or financed by partisan supporters.

What Bush is being asked to condemn is an ad which is demonstrably false
and obviously deliberately so. The fact that it came from a soft money
group is not relavant.

Got it?


--Mike

You mean like kerry should condemn the ads that make wild accusations against
Bush?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

In article ,
(B2431) wrote:

Bush has come out and asked who ever is responsible for those ads to pull
them.

No he bloody has not. All he keeps saying is "we need to get control of
all these hyear 527 groups" without ever specifically referring to Swift
Butt Veterans. It's like he has some kind of bizarre mental block, or
something, and can't know they exist.

Has kerry made any attempt to reign in the 527s and similar activities that
take his side?

Unless and until you call on both candidates to denounce such activities
please
don't act as if one side is the agrieved party and the other side is a bully.


Again, although the Bush campaign and its sycophants keep trying to turn
this as a 527 issue, it is not. The issue is the president refusing to
denounce an ad in which the overwhelming evidence shows as lies.

When they starting fabricating things to a political end, Bush should do
the honorable thing and denounce it...just like John McCain asked him to.


Was John McCain wrong to say Bush was wrong and should denounce the ad?



--Mike

In article ,
(B2431) wrote:


Bush has come out and asked who ever is responsible for those ads to pull
them.

He asked Kerry to do the same. What are the chances Kerry asks Moveon.org
to
stop their slander campaign? How about Michael Moore?


Can anybody objectively demonstrate those ads are slander as has been
the case with the SWBVT ads?



--Mike

No one on either side has been proven to have committed slander.


Depends what your burden of proof is. The accounts of the vast majority
of the people who were there with him as well as incident reports are
good enough for me.


--Mike