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#1
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Musings on KCDW, ILS, and WAAS
I fly primarily out of CDW in Northern NJ. Although I'm not "plugged in"
with the various machinations at the airport, there's some trickle down. Accuracy, of course, is completely suspect. So have a large grain of salt at the ready. What I "heard" was that Mac Dan had been hoping for a runway extension and the addition of a glideslope to the existing localizer. This would have improved their charter business somehow (although I'm not familiar with the relevant FAR parts so I don't know how). Unfortunately for them, the current work on 4/22 includes neither lengthening nor ILS. The best approach will remain a localizer. In retrospect, I was kind of glad this occurred while wearing my selfish hat. Both TEB and MMU are becoming increasingly unfriendly to we 100LL burners. Pushing more charter business at CDW would, I imagine, cause the same thing to occur there. So the lack of the glideslope is, I thought, good for some of us. But I just read the article on WAAS and precision GPS approaches in the current IFR. Now, I wonder... Once this sort of thing really comes online, how will that impact MacDan's charter business? If a WAAS-based precision approach is put in at CDW, won't that do whatever the glideslope would have done for their business? And might that not cause CDW to become less "spam can" friendly, as has been occurring with TEB and MMU? I find myself wondering if WAAS is going to end up a Bad Thing for at least some of us. Anyone with information or opinions on this subject? I'd love to know, for example, what difference the glideslope would made to the charter business, and if that same difference occurs with a precision GPS approach. - Andrew |
#2
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Andrew Gideon wrote:
In retrospect, I was kind of glad this occurred while wearing my selfish hat. Both TEB and MMU are becoming increasingly unfriendly to we 100LL burners. Pushing more charter business at CDW would, I imagine, cause the same thing to occur there. So the lack of the glideslope is, I thought, good for some of us. I'm curious about the ways in which KTEB is unfriendly. I've seen postings about how controllers can be terse with pilots, but that's typical in busy situations everywhere. I know that the gas is a bit expensive as well, but my little Warrior doesn't burn much. Are there other problems? Is it only VFR planes that have problems, or is there a perceived discrimination against IFR small planes as well? When I flew down for a meeting in Manhattan last spring, I landed at Caldwell/KCDW. I agree that it's a nice, friendly little airport (for example, when I was doing a preflight just before 11:00 pm, the tower controller saw me and called me on the radio as soon as I started the engine, just to make sure I knew the tower was shutting down). However, it was about 1.5 hours away from midtown Manhattan by road, not only during the afternoon, but during the late evening (light traffic) as well. Ouch! It felt like I'd ended up landing half way to Chicago. I spent nearly as long driving in and out as I did flying down from Canada (and the car and driver to get into town cost more than my fuel for the trip down). I've pretty-much decided to try KTEB next time, just to be closer to town. All the best, David |
#3
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David Megginson wrote:
I'm curious about the ways in which KTEB is unfriendly. I've seen postings about how controllers can be terse with pilots, but that's typical in busy situations everywhere. I know that the gas is a bit expensive as well, but my little Warrior doesn't burn much. Are there other problems? Is it only VFR planes that have problems, or is there a perceived discrimination against IFR small planes as well? Perhaps "unfriendly" conveys the wrong impression. TEB's ATC, for example, has never been anything but completely helpful to me - even when I was new to the airport and...a little troublesome (ie. I once asked for a progressive to Million Air - the big building with the "Million Air" sign right before me {8^). But the pricing for tie-downs and operations has been increasing, with the "break" given to "spam cans" dropping. That's really how I meant "unfriendly". For transients, I expect that these are much less significant. When I flew down for a meeting in Manhattan last spring, I landed at Caldwell/KCDW. I agree that it's a nice, friendly little airport (for example, when I was doing a preflight just before 11:00 pm, the tower controller saw me and called me on the radio as soon as I started the engine, just to make sure I knew the tower was shutting down). However, it was about 1.5 hours away from midtown Manhattan by road, not only during the afternoon, but during the late evening (light traffic) as well. Ouch! That seems high for "light traffic", but it may merely be that your definition and mine are a little different. Still, 90 minutes to midtown during the day or evening is quite possible. It felt like I'd ended up landing half way to Chicago. I spent nearly as long driving in and out as I did flying down from Canada (and the car and driver to get into town cost more than my fuel for the trip down). I've pretty-much decided to try KTEB next time, just to be closer to town. It is definitely closer. But traffic can bite just as hard, as you're still traveling by car. A nice alternative - that I've never tried, as one of my goals in life is to avoid NYC as much as possible - would be the Little Falls train station near CDW. You'd need a ride there, but the FBO might oblige or a short cab trip would work. But this requires advance planning to work it into your schedule...and some luck to *keep* it in your schedule. Or, from either TEB or CDW, ride the bus. They get their own lanes during rush periods. Another alternative is Linden, which is just a short cab ride from the PATH train into the city. Unlike the Little Falls train, this runs constantly and frequently. But Linden is a "mostly VFR" airport. It has only a GPS approach, and it can take a *long* time to be cleared for an IFR departure if you're using runway 9. - Andrew |
#4
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David Megginson ) wrote:
I'm curious about the ways in which KTEB is unfriendly. I've seen postings about how controllers can be terse with pilots, but that's typical in busy situations everywhere. I know that the gas is a bit expensive as well, but my little Warrior doesn't burn much. Are there other problems? Is it only VFR planes that have problems, or is there a perceived discrimination against IFR small planes as well? I've been into Teterboro four times over the last few months in a C172. Granted, I was flying with the Angel Flight callsign on one leg of the flight (either approaching or departing), but the other 50% of the time I was using my tail id. Oh, and I have only used Signature there, not MillionAir. In my experiences with the controllers (both NY approach and the TEB controllers), I found that if you are able to execute their requests and respond back without sounding flustered, able to keep your speed up right to the numbers, and able to know exactly where you are on the ground, the controllers treat you with the same outward respect as the large corporate jets. Study the taxi diagram and the TETERBORO 5 departure procedure ahead of time. IMO, the most unfriendly aspect when compared to other airports is simply the cost of fuel and parking. But, if you subscribe to the "time is money" adage, then even the added costs beat the time spent commuting in from CDW. -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#5
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Andrew Gideon wrote:
Or, from either TEB or CDW, ride the bus. They get their own lanes during rush periods. Thanks -- I've had a few other people recommend the bus as well. From what I've heard, it's quite cheap to take a Manhattan cab from midtown to KTEB, but ridiculously expensive to take a NJ cab (or car and driver) from KTEB into midtown. I'd probably take the bus into the Port Authority, then take a cab back. All the best, David |
#6
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"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com... In retrospect, I was kind of glad this occurred while wearing my selfish hat. Both TEB and MMU are becoming increasingly unfriendly to we 100LL burners. Pushing more charter business at CDW would, I imagine, cause the same thing to occur there. So the lack of the glideslope is, I thought, good for some of us. But I just read the article on WAAS and precision GPS approaches in the current IFR. Now, I wonder... Once this sort of thing really comes online, how will that impact MacDan's charter business? If a WAAS-based precision approach is put in at CDW, won't that do whatever the glideslope would have done for their business? And might that not cause CDW to become less "spam can" friendly, as has been occurring with TEB and MMU? What makes an airport less span can friendly? Tangibles like prices and possibly policies. Or intangibles like perceived attitudes and ? I'm not challenging the assertion, just asking. I flew out of CDW some years ago and have visited on occassion. It has location. It seems to lack decent runways and facilities for the jet crowd. Don't know about TEB but MMU never seemed to welcome light GA. When I was training at CDW, we just didn't go to MMU. I've heard since that they have discouraging fee practices. After flying in NJ for years I feel like I fell into aviation heaven down here in NC where it seems every county in the state has a 5-6,000 foot runway with ILS - or they are currently expanding to that standard. Some of them are busy, and some just sit there for your consideration. I've stopped avoiding busy and/or large airports when they are the most convenient landing spot. And more often than not, I've found them to be good light GA travel stops. Not sure I'd want to be based at some of them. The only tangible factor is 100ll prices. I' |
#7
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Maule Driver wrote:
I'm not challenging the assertion, just asking. I really should have been more clear. Sorry. I meant price. [...] Don't know about TEB but MMU never seemed to welcome light GA. When I was training at CDW, we just didn't go to MMU. I've heard since that they have discouraging fee practices. As I understand it, MMU has had an operation fee for a while. However, there was something "funny" about it. Like, perhaps you could do multiple approaches and be charged for only one "operation"? But they were still, supposedly, reasonably priced for tie-downs and such. Recently, however, this has apparently changed. It's one of the factoids about which I'm very unclear. Perhaps someone based at MMU here can provide more details (or tell me that I'm mistaken). After flying in NJ for years I feel like I fell into aviation heaven down here in NC where it seems every county in the state has a 5-6,000 foot runway with ILS - or they are currently expanding to that standard. Some of them are busy, and some just sit there for your consideration. So...how many counties do you have? - Andrew |
#8
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"Andrew Gideon" After flying in NJ for years I feel
like I fell into aviation heaven down here in NC where it seems every county in the state has a 5-6,000 foot runway with ILS - or they are currently expanding to that standard. Some of them are busy, and some just sit there for your consideration. So...how many counties do you have? I'm exaggerating... a lot. But it doesn't seem that way sometimes. I watched KEXX Lexington County rip up the runway, turn it and grow it (thanks NASCAR). No ILS though since KRUQ Rowan County is 10 miles down the road. KTTA Sanford/ Lee County abandoned theirs and put up a new ILS equipped 6,000 footer. Still looks like it serves a pine forest. KTDF Person Co. just lengthened and put in an ILS. That's my favorite practice approach. KJNX Johnston County has 5500 and an ILS - probably for the nameless hangar at one end of the airport (CIA?). KVUJ Stanley County - I fell in there one day for passenger relief (there's no other reason to go there). Cheap gas and nice runway and all but it's too long. So they have a short parallel runway for Nat Guard C130 short field work or something - thankyou again US Gov. KSVH Statesville north of Charlotte is getting ready to lengthen for Lowe's new HQ I guess. There are lots of counties in between I guess. But I'm still amazed at the growth and expansion after living in Jersey where it seems all GA airports were endangered. Of course there's a lot more stuff in Jersey and suprisingly little down here in NC. Thanks for an excuse to ramble. |
#9
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#10
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I fly only out of CDW these days since Century moved from MMU last year. I
agree, MMU is very GA unfriendly, and it's due to two things: 1) The developers of the airport have the SWEETEST government deal you could ask for ... they pay $100k a year to the city of Morristown (I think, not sure if any of that goes to the county or state) for the rights to develop the airport, pretty much at will. For the next 99 years (give or take a few, I don't know all the details). 2) Signature is it. If you're transient, you go to them, or you don't get gas. As a result, they abuse their monopoly power significantly... it's one of the few places I know of where Jet-A regularly costs _less_ than 100LL. And the last time I checked, it was around $3.50 for 100LL. Also, there's a landing fee... $10, but it's only charged on a daily basis... so you go for some practice touch & goes, and you only pay the $10 once per day. I don't know if anybody in the gov't around there has wised up to what's going on at the airport, but I'm pretty sure the surrounding communities are none too pleased with the almost constant pace of jet traffic in and out of there, starting at 7am and lasting well into the evening. I wouldn't worry about this happening at CDW for a couple of reasons... One, they don't have a long enough runway to support some of the jets that land at MMU and TEB... and in the short term, I know of no plans to create one. Second, the airspace around CDW, when 4/22 is open (right now it's closed for repaving), is typically configured so that planes can only depart and arrive on runways 22 and 27. They never, ever use runway 9 unless the wind is blowing a good gale force straight down runway 9... The reason is because if they did, planes would be streaming in directly in the path of MMU's approach for runway 23. Runway 4 does get used, but only if the winds absolutely require it. If they created an ILS or WAAS approach for 22, there would be more traffic to contend with, and that would screw up the already busy approach routes going into EWR and TEB. The ATIS regularly says "caution planes descending from 3000 to 2000 into Teterboro" when they're handling a heavy load, and I don't think that adding planes to that mix would help matters much. I could be wrong, but that's my impression judging by the way things typically work there. -- Guy Elden Jr. |
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