Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard

For months I took his lying **** and never said a word. Now I am tired of
taking his crap. And the free ride of that lying **** is over.


Arthur Kramer

I'm at the point now where this is becoming too hard to watch. Like I said
earlier, I read Art's posts like a rubber necker slowing down at a bad car
wreck but, to keep the anology alive, this one is too messy...


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 1:57 PM Pacific Standard Time

ar too; it was called the Cold War, and it would not have turned out the
way it did if not for the efforts of the Ed's, the Gordon's, the
BUFFDRVR's,
the Paul Adams', etc., etc., and so on who saw fit to join up, or
continue
to serve even after "their" war was over. Some died doing their part,
just
as dead as any of your buddies who fell to flak, nor were the fatalities
confined to flight crews or airborne units-- we had troops in our brigade
die every time we hit NTC for a rotation, and we lost troops during the
contstruction operations we executed in Central America as part of the
fight
against communism. Not something to make light of.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


And all this has zero to do with you. Now go away you are getting
boring.

It is obvious at this point that you are going to continue avoiding
answering the questions posed to you regarding your previous erroneous
posts, despite your pointed request to ennumerate them; not surprising, as
the ol' "ignore the question and attack the questioner" strategy is your
hallmark. Your info on the Guard in WWII is incorrect; your refusal to
simply say, "Ooops, I did not know that, I just misremembered", and instead
burying your head in the sand while hurling baseless accusations at those
who have pointed out your falsehoods, just demonstrates how morally bankrupt
you really are and how desperate you are to not have to face up to your own
mistakes. As the resident B-52 jockey noted, you are indeed a rather sad
case.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 11:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
ubject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 5:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
Guard
From: "Ragnar"
Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the
National
Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time

You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be
drafted
into
Air
Crew or
into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service,
How
stupid
can
you
be? Your ignorance is appalling.

Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received
your
call-up
notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time
repeatedly
claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight
duty).
So
what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high
tailed
it
to
the
recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving
in
the
infantry, or what?

Brooks



Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger
fool
than
ever..
fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered
for
anything
where
you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?

Art, why not just answer the question?



What question asshole?

Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would
think a
man
of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.

As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question.
Just
answer it and end the silliness.

Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he
was
purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some
of
his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring
those
questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
mudslinging.

Brooks






And exacrtly what is the lie you alledge I told liar? You still
refuse
to
post it liar.

That the Guard was a refuge for shirkers during WWII? (Kind of odd, being
as
the order mobilizing the *entire* National Guard was published one month
*before* the draft was even approved by Congress) That the Guard was
still
recruting in 1943 when you went into the service? (False, as the Guard
had
been fully mobilized for about two years by that time, and there were no
local units to join until those units were demobilized in 1945)And now,
courtesy of your recent statement, all of those past claims that you
"volunteered" for service, when in fact you only joined up after
receiving
your draft notice? That would be three falsehoods right there.

And you KEEP forgetting that you already killfiled me (again)...

Brooks



Arthur Kramer



How come you never saw any combat? Cowardice?

Nice try. Can't answer the question so you deflect attention by changing
the subject.

Just answer the question.

"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 11:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
ubject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 5:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
Guard
From: "Ragnar"
Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the
National
Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time

You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be
drafted
into
Air
Crew or
into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service,
How
stupid
can
you
be? Your ignorance is appalling.

Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received
your
call-up
notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same
time
repeatedly
claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight
duty).
So
what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high
tailed
it
to
the
recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving
in
the
infantry, or what?

Brooks



Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger
fool
than
ever..
fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered
for
anything
where
you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?

Art, why not just answer the question?



What question asshole?

Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would
think a
man
of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.

As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question.
Just
answer it and end the silliness.

Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he
can't
answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that
he
was
purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as
some
of
his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring
those
questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
mudslinging.

Brooks






And exacrtly what is the lie you alledge I told liar? You still
refuse
to
post it liar.

That the Guard was a refuge for shirkers during WWII? (Kind of odd,
being
as
the order mobilizing the *entire* National Guard was published one
month
*before* the draft was even approved by Congress) That the Guard was
still
recruting in 1943 when you went into the service? (False, as the Guard
had
been fully mobilized for about two years by that time, and there were
no
local units to join until those units were demobilized in 1945)And now,
courtesy of your recent statement, all of those past claims that you
"volunteered" for service, when in fact you only joined up after
receiving
your draft notice? That would be three falsehoods right there.

And you KEEP forgetting that you already killfiled me (again)...

Brooks



Arthur Kramer



How come you never saw any combat? Cowardice?

Nice try. Can't answer the question so you deflect attention by changing
the subject.

Just answer the question.

That'll never happen. Art continually brags about how courageous he was, but
when it comes to facing up to quotes of his own words, he always manages to
avoid answering the questions. Seems his courage runs out when it comes to
facing up to his own past erroneous statements.

Brooks

"Tex Houston" wrote in message
...

I'm for a kinder, gentler newsgroup but then I also wish for World Peace.
Like I said, neither of you have covered yourselves in glory.

What else has Kevin Brooks ever brought to ram?

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"Ragnar" wrote in message
...


As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question. Just
answer it and end the silliness.

Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he was
purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some of
his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring those
questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
mudslinging.

It is only politics Kevin, grow up.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "John Mullen"
Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
time
or his
God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth
or
keyboard should immediately disregarded.

Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.


Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.

John


Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with
the National Guard?

The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries of
their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.

Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense
Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.

During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units
were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.

Joe




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Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Joe Osman"
Date: 3/4/04 2:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "John Mullen"
Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
time
or his
God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth
or
keyboard should immediately disregarded.

Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.


Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.

John


Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with
the National Guard?

The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries of
their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.

Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense
Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.

During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units
were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.

Joe


Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National
Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and
never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Joe Osman"
Date: 3/4/04 2:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "John Mullen"
Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
time
or his
God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his
mouth
or
keyboard should immediately disregarded.

Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.


Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority
of
his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.

John


Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII
with
the National Guard?

The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries
of
their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.

Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State
Defense
Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.

During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these
units
were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.

Joe


Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the
National
Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the
"Guard" and
never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

You are still way off-base. He was referring to the State Guard (as some
states called it, others using the outright term State Militia) which was
formed to provide the kind of "homeland defense" services that the National
Guard had provided to its states before it was mobilized in late 1940-early
1941. Once placed in federal service, the states lost all control of the
National Guard units they had--by early spring in 1941 there were NO
National Guard units remaining; they had all reported off to the various
federal mobilization centers to begin training up for wartime overseas
service. Some left early--units from New Mexico went to the Philippines in
mid/late 1941, for example, which is why Guardsmen were included in the
roles of the Bataan Death March. Those "State Guard" forces that were formed
by the seperate states were made up of those too old, too young, or already
excepted from service dur to their civilian occupations being considered
critical to support the war effort; being in the State Guard was NOT a way
to avoid federal military service, since any able bodied member who did not
have a deferment was still subject to the draft. After the war most of these
state militia organizations faded away, though a few states kept them
running at one level or another. During the 1980's, when the states realized
how dependent the Army and Air Force were on their respective National Guard
components, many states resurrected these militia forces to ensure they had
a ready force able to help out if their National Guard units were
federalized.

This is about the sixth time the fact that the National Guard was in its
*entirety* federalized well before you even finished high school has been
"explained further" to you--I doubt this attempt will fare any better than
the previous ones.

Brooks


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) writes:
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Joe Osman"
Date: 3/4/04 2:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "John Mullen"
Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
time
or his
God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth
or
keyboard should immediately disregarded.

Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.


Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.

John


Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with
the National Guard?

The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries of
their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.

Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense
Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.

During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units
were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.

Joe


Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National
Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and
never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

Art, the National Guard as we know it today was pretty much
established under the Militia Act of 1903, which required that the
various units of teh Organized Militia of the various States had to
conform to U.S. Army standards of equipment, organization, and
training, Federal control was tightened throughout the decade
following, and the National Guard was made part of the United States
Army via the National Defence Act of 1914. This recognized 4 elements
of the land forces of the U.S,: The Regular Army, the National Guard,
the Reserve Corps, and the wartime Volunteer Army. (The regular Army
was made up of Career Soldiers. The National Guard was the part-time
reserve, organized into units housed by the States and available to
the Governors of those States. The Reserve Corps was part-time
soldiers not formed into units, The Volunteer Army was to have been
the units formed during wartime expansion of the Army. By the time of
the U.S. ENtry into the FIrst World War, the Volunteer Army was
replaced by the National Army, which was made up of people inducted
via the Draft. The Federal GOvernment gained the power to appoint all
Officers in 1914.

(As an aside, Regular Army units are distinguished by Division numbers
running from 1 through 25, and Regimental designations running from
1-100. National Guard Division numerical designations run from 26-62,
and Regiments from 100-168. National Army units had Division and
Regemntal numbers higher than these. So any Division between 26 adn
62 (That actual Highest number activated was 45) was a National Guard
Division.)

In August 1918, all Active Units (Regulars, Activated Guard Units, and
National Army) were fused inot the same organization. One they're
called up or activated, they're considered completely intergangable
with the Regular Army.

The National Guard was called up beginning in February 1940, and was
not released until Nov/Dec. 1945.

Most of this is from the "Infantry" volume of the Army Lineage Series,
Mahon and Danysh, Office of teh Chief of Military History, Washington
D.C., 1972, and "World War II Order of Battle", Stanton, Galahad, NY,
NY, 1991.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster