Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS - Video

On Nov 23, 4:19*pm, " wrote:
On Nov 23, 11:43*am, a wrote:

The thing you may be missing is you are used to flying a certain glide
slope, probably defined by the VASI. On a short field for me at least
the final approach over the obstruction to flare is MUCH steeper. I'm
trading off comfort and some margin for a very short roll-out.

I bet you are right on what I am used to for glide. *Instrument world
does make a mess of visual approaches and it's nuances.

Generally I don't miss the VASI or PAPI, as that is how I learned )
keeping the bug spot on the numbers), but what I haven't had much
practice "for real reasons" is that 50 foot obtacle clearance.

Imaginary trees not quite as "intimidating" when the real deal trees
tend to block the lights at approach end of the runway on a low glide
path. :-) and I really didn't feel that low coming into M23 as I would
have made the runway (without the trees) *had the fan quit. *The last
short field airport I went to was 2700 foot and it was much easier
since there were no obstacles.

So in a nutshell, short fields I can hang with, it's that extra
variable having trees :-) that give it a little extra slam dunking
challenge for me.

I can pretty much assure you if you get slow with a steep approach
angle the trees will be less a mind games problem. Come in at a
steeper approach angle, aim for touchdown 1200 feet short of the
turnoff -- you'll be surprised at how easy the short field technique
is. 2700 feet is simply not a short field, I'd be aiming to touch down
1500 feet from the turn off in a routine landing. If you go slower in
effect you'll be flying an approach angle a 172 with some flaps
deployed flies, and if it feels dicey the first couple of times
there's plenty of room for pitching down a bit. Try it at 2000 feet
agl, get a bit slower, then watch airspeed and rate of descent. You're
apt to be surprised at how comfortable you'd be at something a lot
more than 3 degrees.

A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the
center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney,
normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit
sideways.

All of this, of course, assumes one is very familiar with the
airplane. I am very comfortable closer to the edge in my airplane than
I would be in something like a 172, which is a much more forgiving
airplane, unless I had a bunch of recent hours in it. I would not do
any of the things I mentioned with a non pilot aboard, and even with
one who's not a CFI I'd be doing a lot of talking to avoid having the
right hand seat badly stained. After all, I have to get out of the
airplane over that seat.

Had a thought -- be fun to do some of those things with some of the
pseudo pilots who post here aboard. My pre flight check list would
include the challenge "Depends?" with the required response "On".

On Nov 23, 3:53*pm, a wrote:

A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the
center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney,
normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit
sideways.

I actually considered this slip method and probably would have tried
it had I had some time for a third or fourth approach. I can get
outstanding sink rate with my Sundowner slipping, just seems it's all
or nothing. Either it doesn't want to stop flying (as in the video)
or drops like a man hole cover.

Looking at the raw video, on my taxi back to 13, I counted 7 white
centerline stripes of which 5 were before the taxiway turnoff. Maybe
somebody can calculate the actual distance it took me to do a 180 in
the middle of the 7th stripe? http://www.airnav.com/airport/M23 has a
good picture of the airport and 13 is the left side of the airport
where I landed.

Second landing took longer to stop but I landed pretty close to where
the first landing was.

For me.....

It's finding that happy medium with power adjustments for me. Nose
probably like your Mooney points down with flaps deployed so balancing
that heavy nose with my stabilator at slow speeds gets rather dicey as
when I get behind the power curve, I start losing that stabilator
authority.. Not sure about Mooneys, but I am very forward CG so when
I deploy flaps, my ASI actually will increase slightly due to the
pitch down movement until drag kicks in..

I agree 2700 really not short but it's short relative to this pilots
experience. :-) and even in the video, I had it stopped well within
2000 feet (or less). I just need much more practice around trees!

Never thought of depends as a preflight checklist! I should add it LOL

On Nov 23, 6:04*pm, " wrote:
On Nov 23, 3:53*pm, a wrote:

A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the
center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney,
normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit
sideways.

I actually considered this slip method and probably would have tried
it had I had some time for a third or fourth approach. *I can get
outstanding sink rate with my Sundowner slipping, just seems it's all
or nothing. *Either it doesn't want to stop flying (as in the video)
or drops like a man hole cover.

Looking at the raw video, on my taxi back to 13, I counted 7 white
centerline stripes of which 5 were before the taxiway turnoff. *Maybe
somebody can calculate the actual distance it took me to do a 180 in
the middle of the 7th stripe? *http://www.airnav.com/airport/M23has a
good picture of the airport and 13 is the left side of the airport
where I landed.

Second landing took longer to stop but I landed pretty close to where
the first landing was.

For me.....

It's finding that happy medium with power adjustments for me. *Nose
probably like your Mooney points down with flaps deployed so balancing
that heavy nose with my stabilator at slow speeds gets rather dicey as
when I get behind the power curve, I start losing that stabilator
authority.. *Not sure about Mooneys, but I am very forward CG so when
I deploy flaps, my ASI actually will increase slightly due to the
pitch down movement until drag kicks in..

I agree 2700 really not short but it's short relative to this pilots
experience. :-) and even in the video, I had it stopped well within
2000 feet (or less). *I just need much more practice around trees!

Never thought of depends as a preflight checklist! *I should add it LOL

Not wanting to abuse dead horses here, but may I suggest you think a
little bit differently about runways? Don't consider them starting on
the numbers, think about them starting a comfortable distance from
your turn off point -- say, 2000 feet short of it. Then all runways in
your mind's eye are 2000 feet long, with perhaps a mile of over- run
or lead in. You'll fly more and taxi less. More importantly, you'll be
getting off the active sooner, which once every 500 years might save
your life. One caution -- if you're landing at an uncontrolled airport
with a long runway and there's someone at the threshold, be careful. I
tend to fly the approach in that circumstance so that my airplane is
where that pilot might be looking (rather than much higher), then add
power and fly the extra 500 feet (or whatever) down the runway before
touching down.

These are all really minor things, it's asking the usual questions
about what might be done better, and refining techniques. That is
really are what we should look for on RAP: Dudley was the model for
giving that kind of information.

On Nov 24, 3:53*am, a wrote:
On Nov 23, 6:04*pm, " wrote:





On Nov 23, 3:53*pm, a wrote:

A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the
center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney,
normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit
sideways.

I actually considered this slip method and probably would have tried
it had I had some time for a third or fourth approach. *I can get
outstanding sink rate with my Sundowner slipping, just seems it's all
or nothing. *Either it doesn't want to stop flying (as in the video)
or drops like a man hole cover.

Looking at the raw video, on my taxi back to 13, I counted 7 white
centerline stripes of which 5 were before the taxiway turnoff. *Maybe
somebody can calculate the actual distance it took me to do a 180 in
the middle of the 7th stripe? *http://www.airnav.com/airport/M23hasa
good picture of the airport and 13 is the left side of the airport
where I landed.

Second landing took longer to stop but I landed pretty close to where
the first landing was.

For me.....

It's finding that happy medium with power adjustments for me. *Nose
probably like your Mooney points down with flaps deployed so balancing
that heavy nose with my stabilator at slow speeds gets rather dicey as
when I get behind the power curve, I start losing that stabilator
authority.. *Not sure about Mooneys, but I am very forward CG so when
I deploy flaps, my ASI actually will increase slightly due to the
pitch down movement until drag kicks in..

I agree 2700 really not short but it's short relative to this pilots
experience. :-) and even in the video, I had it stopped well within
2000 feet (or less). *I just need much more practice around trees!

Never thought of depends as a preflight checklist! *I should add it LOL

Not wanting to abuse dead horses here, but may I suggest you think a
little bit differently about runways? Don't consider them starting on
the numbers, think about them starting a comfortable distance from
your turn off point -- say, 2000 feet short of it. Then all runways in
your mind's eye *are 2000 feet long, with perhaps a mile of over- run
or lead in. You'll fly more and taxi less. More importantly, you'll be
getting off the active sooner, which once every 500 years might save
your life. One caution -- if you're landing at an uncontrolled airport
with a long runway and there's someone at the threshold, be careful. I
tend to fly the approach in that circumstance so that my airplane is
where that pilot might be looking (rather than much higher), then add
power and fly the extra 500 feet (or whatever) down the runway before
touching down.

These are all really minor things, it's asking the usual questions
about what might be done better, and refining techniques. That is
really are what we should look for on RAP: Dudley was the model for
giving that kind of information.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I find this type of information to be very useful,
and enjoyable to read...at 4 in the morning when
I'd like to be in the air.

Thnx, Mark

On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote:
On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the
power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any
slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground.

Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed
for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with
power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach
angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the
throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get
used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle
power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short
final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy
very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less
than 3' AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_
high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains
and no energy left.

Lots of drag is here to slow you down:
The wing really is deeply stalled.
Nose super high adding fuse drag
Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should
end up all the way back -adding even more drag)
With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock
up)!
The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax
that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains.

When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new
places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with
the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at
altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the
method and the way your baby responds to throttle.

I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a
real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the
landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped.

YMMV

Cheers


I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to
correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I
replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot
obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent.

I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-)

On Nov 24, 4:43*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:
On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote:

On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the
power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any
slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground.

Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed
for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with
power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach
angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the
throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get
used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle
power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short
final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy
very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less
than 3' *AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_
high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains
and no energy left.

Lots of drag is here to slow you down:
The wing really is deeply stalled.
Nose super high adding fuse drag
Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should
end up all the way back -adding even more drag)
With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock
up)!
The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax
that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains.

When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new
places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with
the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at
altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the
method and the way your baby responds to throttle.

I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a
real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the
landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped.

YMMV

Cheers



I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to
correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I
replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot
obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent.

I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-)


Coming down on the back side of the power curve works -- what I'm not
sure about is if aerodynamic losses are as effective as braking once
the airplane has weight on the mains. The more weight the more
effective are the brakes. In the end, we may be talking talking about
a difference of 10 or 20 feet in rollout one way or the other. For
what it's worth, powered slow flight deep in the flare ALWAYS drags
the Mooney's tail skid, then that contact pitches the mains down very
firmly! It feels as if it's dropped on from a foot above the runway.
I'd rather land with the nose still coming up with some elevator left,
but on the other hand never had land off field. I suppose if some
condition forced that I'd do what I had practiced rather than
experiment with something else. The theme of this thread has changed
into encouraging us all to do that practice.

You hinted at tail dragger experience so you would NOT be welcome to
take part in that short field hamburger bet I mentioned earlier
unless your taildragger is a DC 3. . It would be a lot easier just to
send you a gift certificate to Ruby Tuesday's.

On Nov 25, 1:45*am, a wrote:
On Nov 24, 4:43*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:



On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote:

On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the
power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any
slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground.

Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed
for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with
power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach
angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the
throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get
used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle
power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short
final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy
very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less
than 3' *AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_
high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains
and no energy left.

Lots of drag is here to slow you down:
The wing really is deeply stalled.
Nose super high adding fuse drag
Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should
end up all the way back -adding even more drag)
With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock
up)!
The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax
that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains.

When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new
places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with
the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at
altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the
method and the way your baby responds to throttle.

I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a
real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the
landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped.

YMMV

Cheers

I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to
correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I
replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot
obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent..

I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-)

Coming down on the back side of the power curve works -- what I'm not
sure about is if aerodynamic losses are as effective as braking once
the airplane has weight on the mains.

Initiatially the aerodynamic factoers are more important, but keeping
the nose wheel off for as long as possible maximizes braking. Then
again I would bow to higher authority.

The more weight the more
effective are the brakes. In the end, we may be talking talking about
a difference of 10 or 20 feet in rollout one way or the other. For
what it's worth, powered slow flight deep in the flare ALWAYS drags
the Mooney's tail skid, then that contact pitches the mains down very
firmly! It feels as if it's dropped on from a foot above the runway.
I'd rather land with the nose still coming up with some elevator left,
but on the other hand never had land off field.

OK. An additional factor is on a rough field the nose wheel is a weak
point so keeping it off may prevent firewall damage.

I suppose if some
condition forced that I'd do what I had practiced rather than
experiment with something else. *The theme of this thread has changed
into encouraging us all to do that practice.


As I see it, being good at short field is a good idea. The iron fairey
can quit at any time... Being able to drop the plane into a small area
adds a lot to my confidence...

You hinted at tail dragger experience so you would NOT be welcome to
take part in that short field hamburger bet I *mentioned earlier
unless your taildragger is a DC 3. . It would be a lot easier just to
send you a gift certificate to Ruby Tuesday's.

AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into
much better than that. I recommend it!

Cheers

On Nov 25, 3:31*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into
much better than that. I recommend it!

You cannot compare flight simulation landings with landing a plane in
the outside world. I have done both and speak from experience.

Please preface statements like the above with such caveats as I don't
think A is aware you are not talking from experience of flying a real
plane nor hold a PPL.

On Nov 25, 8:26*am, " wrote:
On Nov 25, 3:31*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into
much better than that. I recommend it!

You cannot compare flight simulation landings with landing a plane in
the outside world. *I have done both and speak from experience.

Please preface statements like the above with such caveats as I don't
think A is aware you are not talking from experience of flying a real
plane nor hold a PPL.

I have no way of knowing the credentials of anyone who posts here, but
we should be intelligent enough to decide if suggestions make sense to
us, even if coming from non-pilots. There are zip lock bags in my
airplane because they are great for people who unexpectedly get motion
sick, and that idea came from a pax who carried some of those, just in
case.

On Nov 25, 9:54*am, a wrote:
On Nov 25, 8:26*am, " wrote:

On Nov 25, 3:31*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into
much better than that. I recommend it!

You cannot compare flight simulation landings with landing a plane in
the outside world. *I have done both and speak from experience.

Please preface statements like the above with such caveats as I don't
think A is aware you are not talking from experience of flying a real
plane nor hold a PPL.

I have no way of knowing the credentials of anyone who posts here, but
we should be intelligent enough to decide if suggestions make sense to
us, even if coming from non-pilots. There are zip lock bags in my
airplane because they are great for people who unexpectedly get motion
sick, and that idea came from a pax who carried some of those, just in
case.

Suggestions are one thing as he has been giving all along

Saying that he has landed a tail dragger is another or that his
landings have improved without full disclosure is a diservice to those
who may not "know the full story" (readers coming to here for the
first time). :-) How can he recommend something he has never done in
real life? One shoe doesn't fit all.

I have landed tail draggers in a sim with no problems but you wouldn't
want to put your life in me landing a tail dragger in real life. I
can't feel the plane in the seat in of my pants in MSFX which is
paramount for in my eyes for flying and landing a tail dragger. My
tail dragger experiences amounted to turns and straight and level
flight and I barely could maintain coordinated flight without looking
at the TC. He makes it sound in what I quoted that he flies a plane
in real life and it's just as simple as ABC.

As you know, book smarts and street smarts are two different things.
It appears to me flaps has the book smarts but his street smarts are
not up to snuff and sims just don't get him up to speed when sitting
in less then sterile conditions of a desktop computer.

Yes, actually I am a pro sim person, but not for learning how to land
a plane. Mouse inputs don't give you that feel you need before
meeting terra firma.