A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

TCO for small aircraft



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 11th 10, 01:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default TCO for small aircraft

Disregarding the actual cost of buying your own airplane, what's the total
cost of ownership for a small single-engine aircraft, like a Bonanza? Exclude
fuel and consumables.

I read about someone with a Baron who apparently spends thousands of dollars a
year on required maintenance. Is that typical? Is it lower for a single-engine
aircraft? Does the cost vary a lot with manufacturers, that is, does a Bonanza
cost more than a 172? (From what I understand, Beechcraft aircraft are of very
high quality but very expensive as well.)

Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested in that
as well.
Ads
  #2  
Old July 11th 10, 03:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
betwys1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default TCO for small aircraft

On 7/11/2010 7:51 AM, Mxsmanic wrote:
Disregarding the actual cost of buying your own airplane, what's the total
cost of ownership for a small single-engine aircraft, like a Bonanza? Exclude
fuel and consumables.

I read about someone with a Baron who apparently spends thousands of dollars a
year on required maintenance. Is that typical? Is it lower for a single-engine
aircraft? Does the cost vary a lot with manufacturers, that is, does a Bonanza
cost more than a 172? (From what I understand, Beechcraft aircraft are of very
high quality but very expensive as well.)

Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested in that
as well.


Here is a LOWER limit on operating costs on an airplane - these are for
a good C-150 in advantageous conditions:

Annual fixed costs - capital at 4% opportunity cost, storage,
annual, misc: $2000
Running cost: $18 per hour

Annual bottom line at 70 hrs/yr :$3260 = $47/hr

A Bonanza would be more than a X3 multiplier.

Brian W
  #3  
Old July 11th 10, 04:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bob Moore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 291
Default TCO for small aircraft

Mxsmanic wrote

Disregarding the actual cost of buying your own airplane, what's the
total cost of ownership for a small single-engine aircraft, like a
Bonanza? Exclude fuel and consumables.


Our older (1959) Cessna 172 works out as follows:
Tiedown..Outside $150/mo...Shade Hangar $250/mo...Hangar $500/mo and up.
Insurance...$750/yr. Annual Inspection....Avg about $800/yr.
Total....about $3000/year.

Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested
in that as well.


It burns around 8 gals/hr @ $4.50/gal plus a Qt of oil every now and then
for a total of $35-$40/hour.

At 100 hours/year, that ammounts to about $6000-$7000 per year plus
unexpected repairs.

Bob Moore

  #4  
Old July 11th 10, 04:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 562
Default TCO for small aircraft

On Jul 11, 11:21*am, Bob Moore wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote

Disregarding the actual cost of buying your own airplane, what's the
total cost of ownership for a small single-engine aircraft, like a
Bonanza? Exclude fuel and consumables.


Our older (1959) Cessna 172 works out as follows:
Tiedown..Outside $150/mo...Shade Hangar $250/mo...Hangar $500/mo and up.
Insurance...$750/yr. Annual Inspection....Avg about $800/yr.
Total....about $3000/year.

Also, if you have a figure for cost per flight hour, I'd be interested
in that as well.


It burns around 8 gals/hr @ $4.50/gal plus a Qt of oil every now and then
for a total of $35-$40/hour.

At 100 hours/year, that ammounts to about $6000-$7000 per year plus
unexpected repairs.

Bob Moore


Bob, your out of pocket numbers are fine, but it's also realistic to
include a reserve for engine replacement and a few dollars added to
the hourly rate for other repairs if you want a realistic estimate for
the cost of flying. Or, when the Hobbs goes from 1999 to 2001 hours it
will be a VERY expensive hour! And some things just don't last or wear
out. we put something in the mental piggy bank for those kinds of
things too.

For what it's worth, I fly the Mooney at low RPMs and oversquare as
allowed in the POH so my flight hours do not accumulate 60 minutes
each against the engine life. The current engine, being treated
gently, looks like it'll easily get to 2000 hours.
  #5  
Old July 12th 10, 12:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 790
Default TCO for small aircraft

"a" wrote in message
...

Bob, your out of pocket numbers are fine, but it's also realistic to
include a reserve for engine replacement and a few dollars added to
the hourly rate for other repairs if you want a realistic estimate for
the cost of flying. Or, when the Hobbs goes from 1999 to 2001 hours it
will be a VERY expensive hour! And some things just don't last or wear
out. we put something in the mental piggy bank for those kinds of
things too.


My engine has 360 hours on it. What are the odds that I will still own it
1,140 hours from now? I don't try to figure a "reserve" for an overhaul I
may never do. I prefer the "pay as you go" model.

Our older (1959) Cessna 172 works out as follows:
Tiedown..Outside $150/mo...Shade Hangar $250/mo...Hangar $500/mo and up.
Insurance...$750/yr. Annual Inspection....Avg about $800/yr.
Total....about $3000/year.


My insurance is about twice that (experimental taildragger), but my hanger
is about half. Previous owner paid less than $100 per month for an open
front hangar on a small grass strip.

As far as "opportunity cost" goes - what is the "inopportunity cost" of
being stuck playing video games?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

  #6  
Old July 13th 10, 02:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
betwys1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default TCO for small aircraft

On 7/11/2010 6:00 PM, Stephen! wrote:

The flying club I use should be a pretty good indicator around these
parts. Since the club is not a 'commercial for-profit' operation, the cost
per hour of the aircraft is set just high enough to pay the operating/
maintenance costs for each aircraft... These prices are 'wet'.

VFR Cessna 150 $36/hr
IFR Cessna 172 $52/hr
IFR Cessna 182 $79/hr
Citabria $54/hr
VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 $64/hr


Those prices look attractive. The only prices I have seen recently in
that ball-park also need a monthly or yearly membership fee.
Is that the case at your club? How much?
Where is it?

Regards

Brian W
  #7  
Old July 13th 10, 12:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
betwys1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default TCO for small aircraft

On 7/12/2010 10:47 PM, Stephen! wrote:
wrote in
news
VFR Cessna 150 $36/hr
IFR Cessna 172 $52/hr
IFR Cessna 182 $79/hr
Citabria $54/hr
VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 $64/hr


Those prices look attractive. The only prices I have seen recently in
that ball-park also need a monthly or yearly membership fee.
Is that the case at your club? How much?


Oops... Forgot about that part. $80 a month but if you pay yer
membership before the 15th, $20 of that gets applied toward 'flight
credits' so it works out to $60 a month. Still a hell of a deal.

Where is it?


The 'Sleeping Giant Flying Club' in Helena, Montana.



Even so, at 70 hrs/yr usage, that places a C-150 at $46 /hr.
As good as my numbers. That's a well-run operation.
Has it been running long?

Brian W
  #8  
Old July 13th 10, 12:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 562
Default TCO for small aircraft

On Jul 12, 11:47*pm, "Stephen!" wrote:
betwys1 wrote innews
VFR Cessna 150 * * * * * *$36/hr
IFR Cessna 172 * * * * * *$52/hr
IFR Cessna 182 * * * * * *$79/hr
Citabria * * * * * * * * *$54/hr
VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 * *$64/hr


Those prices look attractive. The only prices I have seen recently in
that ball-park also need a monthly or yearly membership fee.
Is that the case at your club? How much?


* Oops... *Forgot about that part. *$80 a month but if you pay yer
membership before the 15th, $20 of that gets applied toward 'flight
credits' so it works out to $60 a month. *Still a hell of a deal.

Where is it?


The 'Sleeping Giant Flying Club' in Helena, Montana.

--
RCOS #7
IBA# 11465http://imagesdesavions.com


Your club looks like a reasonable deal for people who fly about as
much as the average private pilot. How many aircraft, how many
members?

I know of a couple of 'partnerships' where three or four 100 or 150
flight hours a year people got together and got a complex single,
charged a monthly fee for fixed costs and a per tach hour fee for
flying time --worked well for them, and each 'owned' the airplane for
a weekend a month. The devil is in the details of the partnership
agreement -- actually it was a corporation for liability reasons --
but it worked out for them. I think if the group is going to use the
airplane more than a couple of hundred hours a year it probably works
out that owning a share of the airplane instead of being a member of a
larger club works better. And you can trust me on this:
  #9  
Old July 13th 10, 01:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 562
Default TCO for small aircraft

On Jul 13, 7:59*am, a wrote:
On Jul 12, 11:47*pm, "Stephen!" wrote:



betwys1 wrote innews


VFR Cessna 150 * * * * * *$36/hr
IFR Cessna 172 * * * * * *$52/hr
IFR Cessna 182 * * * * * *$79/hr
Citabria * * * * * * * * *$54/hr
VFR Cessna 180 h/p 172 * *$64/hr


Those prices look attractive. The only prices I have seen recently in
that ball-park also need a monthly or yearly membership fee.
Is that the case at your club? How much?


* Oops... *Forgot about that part. *$80 a month but if you pay yer
membership before the 15th, $20 of that gets applied toward 'flight
credits' so it works out to $60 a month. *Still a hell of a deal.


Where is it?


The 'Sleeping Giant Flying Club' in Helena, Montana.


--
RCOS #7
IBA# 11465http://imagesdesavions.com


Your club looks like a reasonable deal for people who fly about as
much as the average private pilot. How many aircraft, how many
members?

I know of a couple of 'partnerships' where three or four 100 or 150
flight hours a year people got together and got a complex single,
charged a monthly fee for fixed costs and a per tach hour fee for
flying time --worked well for them, and each 'owned' the airplane for
a weekend a month. The devil is in the details of the partnership
agreement -- actually it was a corporation for liability reasons --
but it worked out for them. I think if the group is going to use the
airplane more than a couple of hundred hours a year it probably works
out that owning a share of the airplane instead of being a member of a
larger club works better. And you can trust me on this:


Opps -- the post got away from me

The trust me idea is, one flies a lot more gently if that pilot is a
part owner rather than a member. Billing by the tach hour has other
advantages too, one is more careful of the engine, apt to run at lower
RPMs, use less fuel, etc.
  #10  
Old July 13th 10, 08:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
VOR-DME[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default TCO for small aircraft

In article ,
says...


My engine has 360 hours on it. What are the odds that I will still own it
1,140 hours from now? I don't try to figure a "reserve" for an overhaul I
may never do. I prefer the "pay as you go" model.



I am of the "put the advance in the kitty and make the money work while
youíre out flying" school, but I have to admit the "pay as you go" model is
in some ways more sensible. Depends on how much you fly really. If you
really do 200-400h/year, and intend to take your airplane to TBO and keep
going, you are lying to yourself about operating costs if you do not set
aside an hourly investment for the engine. In this case, when the inevitable
happens - may be before or after TBO - you find yourself out of an airplane
for the time it takes you to come up with the cash. On the other hand, if
you are not sure to take the airplane to TBO, either because you will move
up to bigger and better by the time it gets there, or you donít fly enough
and you expect to be occupying a small pine box before it gets there, then
donít squirrel money away that could be better spent on bassoon lessons!
Selling a plane with a newly rebuilt engine is like selling a house with a
new furnace - no matter how well you did your homework, you will only get
back a fraction of what you so carefully invested. You will be in direct
price competition with people who invested less carefully, or not at all.

Overall, the prices I see listed here are on the very low end, based on old
aircraft with little residual value and little insured hull value. Once you
get into a more recent aircraft, or a higher performance one, you can at
least double all of the numbers I have seen posted here. Remember though,
this more costly machine is taking you many miles per flight hour, and in
some cases saving you not hours, but days of time, and this can be very
economical.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Books on design of small aircraft jan olieslagers[_2_] Home Built 4 July 15th 09 08:32 PM
current small aircraft market???? Private Owning 29 May 25th 07 04:02 PM
Autopilot questions for small GA aircraft Mxsmanic Piloting 58 May 23rd 07 04:22 PM
Common instruments on small aircraft Mxsmanic Piloting 245 November 2nd 06 08:57 PM
Floats on small aircraft [email protected] Home Built 18 February 15th 06 12:19 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.