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#11
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"Snowbird" wrote in message
om... FWIW, this is how my actual time is logged: as PIC. My husband, or my CFI, who acted as PIC, also logged PIC time. Well, I've often wondered about that one. From everyone's second-favorite FAR: A ... pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person (is sole manip, sole occupant, or) ...is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted. The regs have to *require* more than one pilot. Usually an ASEL flown under IFR does not require more than one pilot by regulation. So it would seem not to count. However, if you are saying "given that this is a flight under IFR where the controls are manipulated by a non-IR pilot, then the regulations do require two pilots: the PF and the PNF/PIC", then they can log it. -- David Brooks |
#12
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David Brooks wrote:
"Snowbird" wrote in message om... FWIW, this is how my actual time is logged: as PIC. My husband, or my CFI, who acted as PIC, also logged PIC time. Well, I've often wondered about that one. From everyone's second-favorite FAR: A ... pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person (is sole manip, sole occupant, or) ...is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Correct. The regs have to *require* more than one pilot. Usually an ASEL flown under IFR does not require more than one pilot by regulation. So it would seem not to count. However, if you are saying "given that this is a flight under IFR where the controls are manipulated by a non-IR pilot, then the regulations do require two pilots: the PF and the PNF/PIC", then they can log it. Yes, exactly. That appears to be the General Counsel interpretation -- Andrew Sarangan had a General Counsel letter on his website relevant to the topic. Ron Rosenfeld referred to one. I have an email correspondence with John Lynch of a few years back where he initially disagreed, then consulted the GC office and came back concurring. That's why we felt it was appropriate to log it as we did (why we chose to log it that way is a seperate issue) Cheers, Sydney |
#13
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On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:48:03 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote: However, if you are saying "given that this is a flight under IFR where the controls are manipulated by a non-IR pilot, then the regulations do require two pilots: the PF and the PNF/PIC", then they can log it. If I understand you correctly, I believe this statement of yours is wrong. Given a light SEL a/c, what regulation requires *two* pilots under the circumstances you put forth? I'm not aware of any such regulation. The fact that the person manipulating the controls is not legal to act as PIC under IFR does not lead to a regulatory requirement to have two pilots in the aircraft. The only pilot that is *required* is the one who is acting as PIC. The PF is not *required* by the regulations. So in the instance where the acting PIC/PNF is not a CFI(I) giving instruction, the PNF cannot log PIC time. An instance where the non-CFI PNF may log PIC time because of a regulatory requirement for two pilots would be when the PNF is acting as a safety pilot in simulated instrument conditions. Under that circumstance, two pilots are required by the regulations (91.109) and both may log PIC time. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#14
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No instrument rating is required to log actual. In fact, there are
times when you can log actual in VMC (dark moonless night over water is the FAA example). Of course, you cannot, cannot serve as PIC in IMC or anytime while on an IFR clearance but I assume your CFII took care of that. "Marty Ross" wrote in message et... I recently realized that I should not have included any "actual" (IMC) time recorded in my logbook as PIC time while I was an instrument student. Any suggestions for correcting this error? Rather than making messy corrections and recalculating page totals, how about adding a "corrective" (new) entry? More generally, are there any accepted conventions for retroactively correcting logbook errors? |
#15
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A lot of these situations are covered in the FAA's Part 61 Frequently Asked
Questions: http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc This is a big file (about 2.2MB). Barry |
#16
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On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 02:03:40 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
wrote: Yes, exactly. That appears to be the General Counsel interpretation -- Andrew Sarangan had a General Counsel letter on his website relevant to the topic. Ron Rosenfeld referred to one. Actually, the CC opinions I referred allowed the *PF* to log PIC time. They did not allow the PNF (acting PIC) to log PIC time. Although if the acting PIC were either a CFI(I) giving instruction, or a safety pilot in simulated instrument conditions, then the regulations would allow the PNF to log PIC time. At one time, there was information in the Part 61 FAQ's suggesting that the PNF acting PIC could also log PIC time when the PF was not instrument rated/current/confident. However, I just looked at that source again and cannot locate that information in the revision dated 12/19/2000. There was a letter from Alan Pinkston (in the FAA CC office) also suggesting the PNF might be able to log PIC time during IMC, however, the wording is "When the person in the right seat is acting as safety pilot as a result of 91.109 for avoidance of traffic, or in the case of instrument meteorological conditions since that person provides safety for the flight, (***as well as legal rating requirements***) both persons may log pilot in command time. " (Emphasis mine). This implies that if the PNF is required for legal rating requirements (or under 91.109) then PNF could log PIC time. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#17
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Sydney Hoeltzli wrote in message ...
Correct. The regs have to *require* more than one pilot. Usually an ASEL flown under IFR does not require more than one pilot by regulation. So it would seem not to count. However, if you are saying "given that this is a flight under IFR where the controls are manipulated by a non-IR pilot, then the regulations do require two pilots: the PF and the PNF/PIC", then they can log it. Yes, exactly. That appears to be the General Counsel interpretation -- Andrew Sarangan had a General Counsel letter on his website relevant to the topic. Ron Rosenfeld referred to one. I have an email correspondence with John Lynch of a few years back where he initially disagreed, then consulted the GC office and came back concurring. That's why we felt it was appropriate to log it as we did (why we chose to log it that way is a seperate issue) But the flying pilot must be under a hood in order for the non-flying (acting as PIC ) pilot to log PIC too. Actual instrument doesn't cut it because there is no FAR requiring multiple crew for part 91 IFR, there is one for wearing a hood. |
#18
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On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:17:19 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote: If it is "a flight under IFR in which the controls are, in fact, for at least some of the time, manipulated by a pilot who is not IR or not current" then two pilots are required What regulation requires two pilots under this circumstance? Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#19
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"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:17:19 -0700, "David Brooks" wrote: If it is "a flight under IFR in which the controls are, in fact, for at least some of the time, manipulated by a pilot who is not IR or not current" then two pilots are required What regulation requires two pilots under this circumstance? 61.3(e)(1) for the "not IR" option. As I said, I am manufacturing an artificially rigid definition of the flight to try to figure out if there is any rationale for logging PIC. Almost a reduction ad absurdum. -- David Brooks |
#20
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On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:14:00 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote: "Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message news On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:17:19 -0700, "David Brooks" wrote: If it is "a flight under IFR in which the controls are, in fact, for at least some of the time, manipulated by a pilot who is not IR or not current" then two pilots are required What regulation requires two pilots under this circumstance? 61.3(e)(1) for the "not IR" option. As I said, I am manufacturing an artificially rigid definition of the flight to try to figure out if there is any rationale for logging PIC. Almost a reduction ad absurdum. -- David Brooks I don't see 61.3 (e) (1) requiring two pilots in the case where a non-rated person (or pilot) happens to be manipulating the controls. The only pilot that is *required* is the one who is acting as PIC. ================ 61.3 e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds: (1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown; ================== Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
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