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Owning before obtaining a PP license



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 1st 04, 02:46 AM
New Pilot
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Default Owning before obtaining a PP license

Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot


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  #2  
Old November 1st 04, 04:20 AM
Kyle Boatright
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Don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars before you get your license.
You may find that you don't like flying, or you don't have one of the
necessary skills to be a safe pilot, particularly in a higher performance
airplane. Wait until you know what type of flyer you are (or will be) and
pick a suitable airplane at the time.

If you're thinking Cirrus long term, when the time comes to buy, get a
Tomahawk, Cherokee, or Grumman to get a feel for low wing aircraft and
systems. That'll make the transition to the Cirrus easier, and you won't
lose too much money on any of those aircraft. In addition, if you really
want to do a lease-back, those airplanes will be affordable enough that you
might actually rent them enough so you don't lose your shirt. Unless you
live in the perfect environment (plenty of people with money and free time,
plus excellent weather), I don't see how you'd do enough rental business on
a Cirrus to even put a dent in the ownership cost.


"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will
probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also
that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain
some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford
to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot




  #3  
Old November 1st 04, 04:31 AM
Jim H
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Default

Ask your tax professional if you would benefit from sec 179 depreciation.

As far as Cirrus specific information, check out the Cirrus Owners and
Pilots Association at http://www.cirruspilots.org/ . Spend the $50 to join,
it'll pay for itself many times.

If you are halfway through your training and pretty sure you will continue
with it, by all means get on the ownership train.

Jim


"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will
probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also
that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain
some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford
to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot




  #4  
Old November 1st 04, 06:55 AM
Dude
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Default

If you are sure you want to be an owner, then don't let not having a license
stop you. Lot's of people, including me, bought before they got the PPL.
Purchase and ownership do take time though, so you are likely delaying your
PPL completion.

The SR22 is too much plane for many folks with 10 times your experience. In
order to get one of those, and be able to fly it, you will pay HUGE amounts
in insurance and training costs.

I suggest buying something much more docile if you really want to own now.
Wait until you have an IFR and a few hundred hours before getting that much
airplane. Yes, they are nice and fast, and have long legs, but a 182 or
Diamond Star won't be that far behind the 22, and they are much safer.

If you plan to use depreciation, make sure you want to own a plane for life
(otherwise, you have to pay it back).

Lastly, if you really, really want to get up to an SR22 soon, buy a late
model plane but not new. New planes take a big hit in the first two years,
so if you are trading up quickly, its generally better to go used.




"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will
probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also
that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain
some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford
to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot




  #5  
Old November 1st 04, 07:30 AM
tony roberts
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Posts: n/a
Default

What makes sense economically is to pound a rental plane into the runway
and after you attain your licence and then some - you buy an aircraft
that you look after.

Do you really want to practice landings in your own new Cirrus?

Tony
C-GICE

In article ,
"New Pilot" wrote:

Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot





--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE
  #6  
Old November 1st 04, 02:38 PM
Jon Kraus
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Posts: n/a
Default

I agree.... I won't even do T & G's in my "new" '79 Mooney.... I'd much
rather pound the hell out of a rental 172 (at least try not to pound)
then and aircraft I am going to have to repair. Gosh that makes me sound
pretty insensitive doesn't it? JK


tony roberts wrote:

What makes sense economically is to pound a rental plane into the runway
and after you attain your licence and then some - you buy an aircraft
that you look after.

Do you really want to practice landings in your own new Cirrus?

Tony
C-GICE

In article ,
"New Pilot" wrote:


Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot







  #7  
Old November 1st 04, 10:33 PM
C Kingsbury
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Posts: n/a
Default


"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will

probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.


You've probably heard the saying that "A fool and his money will soon have
more airplane than either can handle." You're probably not a fool but it's a
wise statement to heed nonetheless.

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford

to
pay cash for them?


There's only one kind of new asset that stands a good chance of appreciating
over time: a house. And that works only because they ain't makin' any more
land. If you want to preserve your equity buy a low-time plane that's 10-20
years old in good shape.

If you do buy a new plane with the intent to do a leaseback you want to buy
a common plane that everyone knows how to fly already. A new 172SP or 182
with the G1000 would be the queen of any rental fleet and would probably get
plenty of usage. Since it's under warranty you won't have to sweat
maintenance costs. Oh, and either of these would be very realistic planes to
learn to fly in and not get murdered on insurance. I'm usually very bearish
on leasebacks but this one could work.

-cwk.


  #8  
Old November 1st 04, 11:03 PM
Dave
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Dude" wrote in message ...
.... but a 182 or
Diamond Star won't be that far behind the 22, and they are much safer.


I'm curious to see where this statement comes from. What data do you
have to back up the statement that a Diamond Star or 182 is "safer"
than the Cirrus SR22?

Aside from that, as a newly minted PPL, most would not advise jumping
into a high-perf airplane. What are you training in? If you like it,
consider buying that model, new or used. Or others similar to it. If
you want to unload that pile of cash, you can spend it nicely on a new
Cessna 172/182 or a Piper Archer. Over $200K. In a year or two
you'll probably be able to sell it for a good percentage of what you
paid.

Save your pile of cash for down the road when you're adequately
prepared for the step up. And, as others have said, you'll have a
real hard time getting insured as a new pilot, without IFR, with low
hours, in an SR22 to fly it solo. They may even require 50 hours or
more with an instructor with time in type.
  #9  
Old November 1st 04, 11:06 PM
George Hamilton
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I bought a J4 when I had three hours instruction. I soloed in it and
flew many hours as a student. You will not beat the system any way
you choose to fly. Private aviation is an extravagence. Business
aviation another story. If you can write it off in the business
great, otherwise open your wallet.
I definately would not buy a relative new design aircraft. After
owning a PA28 -140 for twenty years you would be surprised how the
AD's pop up and take more of your money. Buy a Mooney or fixed gear
Piper. Then move up when you get some experience.
  #10  
Old November 1st 04, 11:39 PM
Blanche
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Posts: n/a
Default

George Hamilton wrote:
I bought a J4 when I had three hours instruction. I soloed in it and
flew many hours as a student. You will not beat the system any way
you choose to fly. Private aviation is an extravagence. Business
aviation another story. If you can write it off in the business


Define "extravagence" (please take this in the gentle manner it's offered,
the word is "extravagance", but brownie points for using the noun version
properly rather than "extravagant")

I live out in the Rocky Mountains. If I want a day of skiing, lift
tickets are $40-85 per day (yes, I could get a season pass but those
are to specific areas or groups of areas). Transportation, call it
100 miles each way (Vail is 100 sm from my front door) or at 25 mpg
in my car, 8 gallons or $16. Don't forget lunch. Let's be pragmatic.
If I'm spending over $100/day, another $5-10 for lunch isn't going
to be the deciding issue. I moved to Colorado to ski and used to
get in 50-60 days. No more - I took up flying when I quit skiing.
If I were skiing that much the $300-400 season ticket would be
the first thing to buy. But cheap season tickets didn't exist
when I was skiing like that, so it wasn't difficult to spend
$4000 (now it wouldbe $5K-6K) just on lift tickets in a season.

Wait! Forgot the gear (warm clothes, boots, skis or board). Not
that many people out here buy new gear every year. I've still got
my skis and bindings from 10 yrs ago (the "rock skis") and stuff
from 5 years ago. Guess it's time for new stuff. That'll probably
set me back about $450-750 (boots, skis & bindings).

Hm...my fixed costs per year for the cherokee are

Hangar $3000
Insurance $1000
Maint $1000
total 5000

Awfully similar to skiing....

And I get to fly to Sante Fe or Taos for lunch in nice weather and
be home in time for dinner. Or Devil's Tower AND Mt Rushmore in
one day with friends from the flatlands east of the Mississippi.
Or fly to Phoenix in less than 6 hours instead of the 2 days of
driving.

And I can carry nail clippers if I choose!

Extravagance is in the mind of the beholder. I have friends who are
diehard wind surfers -- any time of the year (wetsuits in the winter!).
Sitting on the wall in their garage are 3 boards and sails for each
of them!

Some people would consider stamp collecting, model railroading, or
gardening as extravagances. It's up to each person to decide on the
hobby of choice.


 




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