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  #11  
Old March 5th 04, 04:28 PM
Eric Greenwell
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Don Johnstone wrote:
I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle

It's not a matter of technology, but philosophy. Cameras or GPS
recorder, you can still make a witnessed takeoff and fly an undeclared
flight. The declared flight definitely predates cameras! I don't know
the history well, but certainly it is a more difficult task to achieve,
and this gives it more value to many of us. Lately, undeclared tasks
have been added, at least for records, so perhaps the philosophy is
changing.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

  #12  
Old March 5th 04, 05:14 PM
Martin Gregorie
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Default

On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.


Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Which is hard to understand. Anyone with a programmable
logger can get airbourne and then declare a flight
by entering the details in the logger, and claim a
badge flight.

As others have pointed out, this is plain wrong.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

  #13  
Old March 5th 04, 10:12 PM
F.L. Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.


Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are?

Frank Whiteley




  #14  
Old March 5th 04, 11:02 PM
Tim Newport-Peace
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X-no-archive: yes
In article , F.L. Whiteley
writes

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
.. .
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are?

Frank Whiteley




If the task set is a qualifying badge task, it is taken as read that by
taking part in the competition that day a declaration has been made and
no separate declaration is required.

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."
  #15  
Old March 6th 04, 11:23 PM
Martin Gregorie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:12:51 -0700, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
.. .
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are?

In my previous post I repeated what I was told when last year I asked
if a 300 km Regionals task could be claimed as Gold distance. The
explanation I repeated as to why it couldn't was given to me at the
time.

Now I've just skim read the FAI OO guide and it mentions no such
limitation, so on the face of it I can't see why a competition task
shouldn't be claimed as a badge flight.

However, I'd also say that the logistics of making a properly
witnessed claim during the task could be quite a problem. You'd have
to get your declaration made between briefing and launching the grid,
find an OO to supervise removing the logger after you land and then
sort out any conflicts between the OO and the task scorer regarding
logger custody and downloading - and do all this in the general
turmoil of a competition day without annoying the folks in competition
control.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

  #16  
Old March 7th 04, 01:26 AM
Tim Newport-Peace
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

X-no-archive: yes
In article , Martin Gregorie
writes
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:12:51 -0700, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
. ..
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are?

In my previous post I repeated what I was told when last year I asked
if a 300 km Regionals task could be claimed as Gold distance. The
explanation I repeated as to why it couldn't was given to me at the
time.

Now I've just skim read the FAI OO guide and it mentions no such
limitation, so on the face of it I can't see why a competition task
shouldn't be claimed as a badge flight.

However, I'd also say that the logistics of making a properly
witnessed claim during the task could be quite a problem. You'd have
to get your declaration made between briefing and launching the grid,


I don't see that. I have always taken the view that by virtue of taking
part in the competition that day, you have declared the task as set by
the organisers. That's common sense, isn't it?

find an OO to supervise removing the logger after you land and then
sort out any conflicts between the OO and the task scorer regarding
logger custody and downloading - and do all this in the general
turmoil of a competition day without annoying the folks in competition
control.


Having an OO remove the Flight Recorder from the Aircraft is only
necessary IF the approval document for that Flight Recorder requires it.

Certainly, under Lasham's Local rules and maybe other clubs, Competition
Officials are Officials Observers for the Duration of the Contest.

It is however important to remember that the 'observation' zones for
Competitions and Badges are slightly different, and if you intend to
claim a badge you need to go a bit further into the zone.

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."
  #17  
Old March 8th 04, 04:41 PM
Don Johnstone
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

As Tim has already noted, the publication of a competition
task counts as a declaration. The only proviso to this
is that the turning points have to be rounded, you
need to enter the defined sector, going into the TP
beer barrel is not enuff. When setting tasks which
qualify as badge flights I always stress this point
so that those who wish to claim a badge go that little
bit further. It is the failure to go into the TP sector
which is probably the reason some claims are rejected,
not that there is a rule against it.

As regards free distance flights not counting as badge
flights, consider the silver distance flight.

At 22:30 06 March 2004, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:12:51 -0700, 'F.L. Whiteley'
wrote:


'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message
. ..
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed
for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an
important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that
can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the
UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim
badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition
where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal
leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration
are?

In my previous post I repeated what I was told when
last year I asked
if a 300 km Regionals task could be claimed as Gold
distance. The
explanation I repeated as to why it couldn't was given
to me at the
time.

Now I've just skim read the FAI OO guide and it mentions
no such
limitation, so on the face of it I can't see why a
competition task
shouldn't be claimed as a badge flight.

However, I'd also say that the logistics of making
a properly
witnessed claim during the task could be quite a problem.
You'd have
to get your declaration made between briefing and launching
the grid,
find an OO to supervise removing the logger after you
land and then
sort out any conflicts between the OO and the task
scorer regarding
logger custody and downloading - and do all this in
the general
turmoil of a competition day without annoying the folks
in competition
control.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :





  #18  
Old March 8th 04, 11:21 PM
Mark James Boyd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Why not simply write down the turnpoint coordinates, off
by one in the "seconds," and get that signed as a declaration?
Then it isn't the competition task, but one flown concurrently.
And obviously it requires different planning, right (since
it IS a different course)?

Reducio ad absurdum...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
  #19  
Old March 8th 04, 11:54 PM
Mark James Boyd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Don Johnstone wrote:
I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle


A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any
of these are wrong, please correct me:

1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset
of the declared task, this is fine:

EXAMPLE:

A B


D C E

If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and
A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the
OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a
"declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations!

2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one
may declare for a flight.

3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration.

So, for example,

A-B-C-D-E-A-B-C-E-D-A-B-D-C-E-A-B-D-E-C-A-B-E-C-D-A-B-E-D-C-
A-C-B-D-E-A-C-B-E-D-A-C-D-B-E-A-C-D-E-B-A-C-E-B-D-A-C-E-D-B-
A-D-B-C-E-A-D-B-E-C-A-D-C-B-E-A-D-C-E-B-A-D-E-B-C-A-D-E-C-B-
A-E-B-C-D-A-E-B-D-C-A-E-C-B-D-A-E-C-D-B-A-E-D-C-B-A-E-D-B-C

is a perfectly valid task declaration. It's also quite useful,
because if one declares this before the flight, one can
fly the turnpoints in any order and after the flight,
that subset achieved is considered a completed, declared
task. And any subset of those points which qualifies
for a badge is also completed and qualifying.

So if one has a clever computer program to print out
all the turnpoint permutations, and enough printer paper,
and a friendly OO, one can simply fly any turnpoints in
whatever order and come back and land and then figure out
what the flight qualifies for. All quite proper.

Reducio ad absurdum...

The IGC should have approved the idea of post-flight declared
turnpoints for badge tasks. It saves paper...

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
  #20  
Old March 9th 04, 12:25 AM
Tim Newport-Peace
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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X-no-archive: yes
In article 404cf98a$1@darkstar, Mark James Boyd
writes
A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any
of these are wrong, please correct me:

1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset
of the declared task, this is fine:

EXAMPLE:

A B


D C E

If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and
A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the
OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a
"declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations!

2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one
may declare for a flight.

3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration.

For badges a maximum of 3 waypoints may be claimed and each Waypoint may
only be claimed once. (SC3, 1.4.5(b). The sequence must be on the
declaration.


Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."
 




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