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when does a "remain clear" instruction end?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 13th 04, 01:13 PM
Arden Prinz
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Default when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.
  #2  
Old February 13th 04, 02:21 PM
John Gaquin
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"Arden Prinz" wrote in message

.......That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end?


...I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter.


When you're talking about airspace entry, etc., pilot/controller interaction
is *never* "understood", or "presumed". Clear and direct statements are
used.

The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?


When you hear the phrase '....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared
into...', or some such. The "remain clear" instruction is so that you don't
come barging into the class C immediately after takeoff, before the
controller has a chance to identify and coordinate you. He probably didn't
make an issue of it because he was about to clear you to turn in anyway
[speculation on my part.].


  #3  
Old February 13th 04, 02:26 PM
John Harlow
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time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace".


Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound like
you could be a nuisance.

. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type,


If you didn't automatically give him all that right after establishing
contact with him (assuming him), then maybe that's why he didn't want to be
bothered by you. I can just hear the controllers sigh when someone gets on
and says "podunk approach, november 12345, would like flight following" and
then the game of 20 questions starts.

to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?


When you explicitly get permission to enter.


  #4  
Old February 13th 04, 02:57 PM
Maule Driver
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"John Harlow"
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace".


Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound

like
you could be a nuisance.


Sounds like it could have been a standard instruction for any a/c on the
ground calling in before departure. Not clear anyone is a nuisance or that
there is *any* traffic. Local practices vary.


. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type,


If you didn't automatically give him all that right after establishing
contact with him (assuming him), then maybe that's why he didn't want to

be
bothered by you. I can just hear the controllers sigh when someone gets

on
and says "podunk approach, november 12345, would like flight following"

and
then the game of 20 questions starts.

Did the controller contact the pilot after departure before the pilot called
himself?

to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?


When you explicitly get permission to enter.

.... or in this Class C situation, after announcing my intent to proceed
direct on course thru the Class C. I would consider any acknowledgement of
the call that did not include a "remain clear" to be sufficient to proceed
on course. That's not how I would do it, but I think that would be ok.

I'm thinking that it may be local practice to instruct any pilot on the
ground to remain clear of the Class C. Once in the air, the normal Class C
procedures would apply. Which would mean once contact is established, entry
would be permitted subject to any instruction to the contrary. But since a
remain clear had already been issued, I too would want explicit permission
to enter.


  #5  
Old February 13th 04, 02:58 PM
EDR
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Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have
permission. The short answer is to request on course after
estaablishing two way radio contact.

Class B: you have to have a clearance.
  #6  
Old February 13th 04, 03:04 PM
Dennis O'Connor
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Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM:
1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that is clearance to enter
the class C airspace..
2. Exception to this rule is if the controller says, "Remain outside the
class Charlie airspace and standby." he is expected/required to use that
exact phrase

Now, the rule not printed that I can see is the exact phrase for
cancelling the remain clear instruction... So, per the Class C rules when
the controller called you back the second time by 'tail number', and said,
"radar contact established", etc., that was again establishing radio contact
(per rule #1) and absent instructions to the contrary you are now cleared to
enter the class C, and if he doesn't like your new heading, he will say
so...

Therefore, you were cleared and did not bust any rules...
I would have preferred that he said, cleared to enter my airspace, or the
class c, etc., somewhere in his patter - obviously he understands rule #1
and expects you to also understand it...
denny
"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.



  #7  
Old February 13th 04, 03:14 PM
Robert Moore
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EDR wrote

Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have
permission.


"Permission" is not acceptable air traffic control terminology.
If I am not told to "remain clear", I CAN fly in Class C and D.

Bob Moore
  #8  
Old February 13th 04, 03:16 PM
Dennis O'Connor
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The basic thrust of your analysis is correct for most controlled airspace,
John; but the clinker in the ashes here is that when a class C controller
calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless
he specifically instructs you to remain clear...
What the AIM does not make it clear is that after being told to stand clear,
any subsequent tail number call, and especially with a phrase like, 'radar
contact established', barometer setting, etc., is clearance to enter per the
rule unless he repeats the instruction to remain clear, or assigns you a
heading, etc.. A point the FAA ought to clarify... I would, like you,
prefer that the AIM require the controller to say, ". . . cleared . . . " It
does not, that I can find...
denny

"John Gaquin" wrote in When you hear the phrase
'....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared
into...', or some such.



  #9  
Old February 13th 04, 03:17 PM
Brad Z
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Default

How did you contact approach prior to departure, RCO, GCO, telephone? If
so, he didn't know when you'd appear and didn't give you blanket
authorization to enter. Because entry doesn't require an ATC clearance, you
won't hear the words "cleared into..." or the like. For clarification, you
could check-in on the frequency with something like "N12345 off podunk
regional, 700 climbing for 3000, requesting overflight of Gunfire AFB, VFR
to Distantville Airport. If that's approved, you're golden. In your
scenario, after radar contact and 2-way comms in the air were established
without any further instructions to remain clear, you got the green light.


"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.



  #10  
Old February 13th 04, 03:28 PM
Nathan Young
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Default

On 13 Feb 2004 04:13:24 -0800, (Arden Prinz)
wrote:

Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace.


Charlie airspace requires established two way radio comm before entry.
You had this. However, the controller also told you to stay clear of
Charlie airspace. Therefore you needed to get cleared into Charlie
airspace before making the turn and did not - so I believe this was an
airspace incursion.

Irrespective of regulations - it never hurts to ask the controller for
clarification. I would say especially so with an Air Force base - you
never know what kind of wierd operations they may have going inside
their airspace.

-Nathan
 




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