Self-launch v Sustainer

OK, let me try to clarify too.
When I said I'd like a self-launch engineered by Honda I really
meant the whole package, not just the core engine. I'd agree
that many of the self-launch problems are not with the core
engine but equally some are very definitely core engine
related.

Let's imagine that you are a German engineer given a blank
piece of paper and asked to design a water cooled two cylinder
two stroke specifically for installation in a self-launch. Years
down the line what have we have got; an engine/installation
that suffers: -
Cylinder head cracks.
Cylinder base gasket leaks.
Iffy crankcase/cylinder head bolts.
Drive belts that fail.

We all know that German engineering can, sometimes, be the
best in the world....I just think it's not very evident in some of
the self-launchers currently on offer.

Of course if you fly from 8000 foot runways surrounded by nice
flat fields this may be less of a worry than flying from many
European glider sites.

Happy landings (and take offs), Dave W.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 9:45:06 AM UTC-4, Dave Walsh wrote:
We all know that German engineering can, sometimes, be the
best in the world....I just think it's not very evident in some of
the self-launchers currently on offer.

I'm glad you don't know how sausages are made ;-)

The problem is simply economic: For the tiny glider market,
it is utterly impossible to afford the testing and refinement
that goes into a modern automobile. Hence our toys will
NEVER approach the latter's reliability.

The motor certification costs have blocked for example the
higher-power motor originally planned for the ASH-30 and ASG-32,
hence the current situation...

Its all about costs.

From guy who does finance and management as well as engineering ;-)

See ya, Dave

German, Japanese, American, Chinese... Engineering is engineering and
has nothing to do with nationality. The final product has more to do
with marketing and manufacturing decisions and materials choices than
differential equations. Think King Tiger tank, vastly under powered for
its size or anything made in China with pot metal fasteners (at least
those things sold in the US) that twist apart at the slightest extra
torque. An aircraft power plant has to be light and powerful, but the
lighter you make something, the less strength and durability it will have.

Like we used to say in the defense industry: Cost, Schedule, Quality -
pick any two.

On 11/2/2016 7:32 AM, Dave Walsh wrote:
OK, let me try to clarify too.
When I said I'd like a self-launch engineered by Honda I really
meant the whole package, not just the core engine. I'd agree
that many of the self-launch problems are not with the core
engine but equally some are very definitely core engine
related.

Let's imagine that you are a German engineer given a blank
piece of paper and asked to design a water cooled two cylinder
two stroke specifically for installation in a self-launch. Years
down the line what have we have got; an engine/installation
that suffers: -
Cylinder head cracks.
Cylinder base gasket leaks.
Iffy crankcase/cylinder head bolts.
Drive belts that fail.

We all know that German engineering can, sometimes, be the
best in the world....I just think it's not very evident in some of
the self-launchers currently on offer.

Of course if you fly from 8000 foot runways surrounded by nice
flat fields this may be less of a worry than flying from many
European glider sites.

Happy landings (and take offs), Dave W.






--
Dan, 5J

We have owned a Duo Discus T (sustainer engine) for ten years or so. It probably has less than ten hours on the engine. My theory is the less you use it, the less likely there will be major repair expenses. I Recall only two times when it was necessary to start the engine rather than landing out. (In Florida)

Cobra one man rigging tool works fine, and I usually assemble it myself.

We are preparing to retire and will be selling this glider if you are interested..

Tom Knauff

Didn't they also build the Hindenburg and the Audi 100? Two examples of **** poor engineering!!


On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 6:45:06 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
.....
We all know that German engineering can, sometimes, be the
best in the world....I just think it's not very evident in some of
the self-launchers currently on offer.

....

Happy landings (and take offs), Dave W.

In theory, but I think culture influences design philosophy. I would trust a German engineered and produced product in a vehicle (air land or sea) long before I would trust a Chinese engineered product! Not intending to sound racist but **** China and there poisoned pet food, baby food, medicine, dog meat festival, children's custom jewelry made of heavy metals and **** their lead pollution. And don't even get me started on their CRM (cockpit resource management)....

German's do know how to make very quality products though, when they are not cheating instead of designing (VW group).

Would you drive a Chinese engineered and made car, I surely would not!

Jon

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 7:26:06 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
German, Japanese, American, Chinese... Engineering is engineering and

--
Dan, 5J

Like thermals this thread seems to be drifting.

My point was that someone looking to buy into self-launchers
for the first time should closely examine the merits if the
various engines on offer (by joining the various owner/user
groups).

I think that, in terms of reliability, the Solo 2625 two stroke
does not represent an improvement over the previous
generation Rotax engines.

Now I know you can't buy a modern self-launch with the Rotax
(except the Taurus?) so if you eliminate all modern Solo
engined self-launchers from your list this just leaves two
options: -

(i) Self-launchers fitted with the Wankel engine

(ii) The electric Antares 20/23E

As I've never owned a Wankel powered sailplane I have no
experience, or axe to grind. But I do remember watching, in
the days I owned a DG808C, an ASH 31M, taxi in from the
runway; I couldn't believe how smooth it sounded compared to
the normal "bag o' nails" noise of a Solo at idle.

Touche and mea culpa!

My last job before retirement was with a German company. I traveled to
Nurnberg (yes, that's how they spell it) for training and to Mexico for
qualification of their (made in Germany) assembly line and it was the
most impressive thing I've ever seen. And my Ford truck was still
humming along just fine at 250,000 miles when a wind storm dropped a
very large tree on it. On my Chinese made motorcycle lift, I replaced
all the nuts and bolts before ever lifting my Harley on it...

On 11/2/2016 8:02 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
In theory, but I think culture influences design philosophy. I would trust a German engineered and produced product in a vehicle (air land or sea) long before I would trust a Chinese engineered product! Not intending to sound racist but **** China and there poisoned pet food, baby food, medicine, dog meat festival, children's custom jewelry made of heavy metals and **** their lead pollution. And don't even get me started on their CRM (cockpit resource management)....

German's do know how to make very quality products though, when they are not cheating instead of designing (VW group).

Would you drive a Chinese engineered and made car, I surely would not!

Jon

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 7:26:06 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
German, Japanese, American, Chinese... Engineering is engineering and
--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

On 11/3/2016 4:04 AM, Dave Walsh wrote:
Now I know you can't buy a modern self-launch with the Rotax
(except the Taurus?)

The Stemme is powered by a /Rotax/ 4-cylinder turbocharged 115
horsepower /certificated/ aircraft engine. It's mainly a glider, but it
will outperform a lot of general aviation piston powered airplanes
(except for baggage).

--
Dan, 5J

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 3:42:22 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Touche and mea culpa!

My last job before retirement was with a German company. I traveled to
Nurnberg (yes, that's how they spell it) for training and to Mexico for
qualification of their (made in Germany) assembly line and it was the
most impressive thing I've ever seen. And my Ford truck was still
humming along just fine at 250,000 miles when a wind storm dropped a
very large tree on it. On my Chinese made motorcycle lift, I replaced
all the nuts and bolts before ever lifting my Harley on it...

On 11/2/2016 8:02 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
In theory, but I think culture influences design philosophy. I would trust a German engineered and produced product in a vehicle (air land or sea) long before I would trust a Chinese engineered product! Not intending to sound racist but **** China and there poisoned pet food, baby food, medicine, dog meat festival, children's custom jewelry made of heavy metals and **** their lead pollution. And don't even get me started on their CRM (cockpit resource management)....

German's do know how to make very quality products though, when they are not cheating instead of designing (VW group).

Would you drive a Chinese engineered and made car, I surely would not!

Jon

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 7:26:06 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
German, Japanese, American, Chinese... Engineering is engineering and
--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

Dan, Nürnberg, Nürnberg, Nürnberg! You got it right except for the Umlaut. And I second your admiration for German Engineering.