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#41
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
"alexy" wrote in message ... "Aluckyguess" wrote: I would say this is correct. If the glider came in from the side how would the Hawker see him. I say they are lucky to be alive. How can a glider hit an airborne jet from the side? It can happen, but the glider is well in front of the jet until the point of impact. Good timing -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#42
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
"Aluckyguess" wrote:
As long as the glider doesnt pull out in front of the other aircraft. Please explain the maneuver you have in mind here. How does a glider "pull out in front of" a biz jet? Maybe after overtaking him?g -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#43
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
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#44
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
"Jim Vincent" wrote in message
. .. I think for all intents, the glider would have been effectively a small dot in the sky except for the last seconds. No, it's the Hawker that was a small (2 meters) motionless white dot in the white sky. The thermalling glider was an 18-meter white cross moving against the desert background. The jet was descending, wasn't it? That means no soot trail. Which, I am convinced, is the only part of the jet visible head-on from far enough to have any practical chance at all to evade, at glider speed. -- Yuliy |
#45
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
"Aluckyguess" wrote in message
... How can a glider hit an airborne jet from the side? It can happen, but the glider is well in front of the jet until the point of impact. Good timing Assuming glider Vne of 150 kts and jet speed of 300 kts, the widest possible azimuth angle from jet to glider is 26.5 degrees off center at any time before impact (linear path). At a more typical for a thermalling glider 60 kts this angle is reduced to 11.3 degrees. Which one do you call "from the side"? -- Yuliy |
#46
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
Yuliy, I assume this is the degrees off center for the jet pilot, what
will it be for the glider pilot under similar conditions. I forgot my math, but sounds like we, as the slower aircraft, need much more scanning then other faster aircrafts, like 360 degrees? So much for see and avoid, unless you thermaling... Ramy Yuliy Gerchikov wrote: "Aluckyguess" wrote in message ... How can a glider hit an airborne jet from the side? It can happen, but the glider is well in front of the jet until the point of impact. Good timing Assuming glider Vne of 150 kts and jet speed of 300 kts, the widest possible azimuth angle from jet to glider is 26.5 degrees off center at any time before impact (linear path). At a more typical for a thermalling glider 60 kts this angle is reduced to 11.3 degrees. Which one do you call "from the side"? -- Yuliy |
#47
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
Ron Natalie wrote:
Because the rule is that ALL powered aircraft ALWAYS give way to ALL gliders and, in uncontrolled airspace, There is NO SUCH RULE. Well, there is in every country that adheres to the ICAO treaties and annexes and you'd better believe it if you ever fly outside the US. I know the US is the most non-compliant signatory but I'd be surprised if these fundamental rules don't apply in the US. They certainly apply to every US aircraft flying internationally. I could of course be wrong - I make a habit of it. All aircraft are required to see and avoid regardless of the right of way rules. Absolutely. But when they collide in spite of this, the powered aircraft is prima facie at fault. If you flew a glider into another aircraft from behind it would be at fault. The overtaking rules do not have an exemption for class. I'll stick to what I said. 1. In VMC, ALL aircraft are required to maintain a lookout so as to see and avoid ALL other aircraft. 2. When on converging courses, powered aircraft are required to give way to gliders. Powered aircraft give way to airships who give way to gliders who give way to balloons. There is, of course, a lot more to it than this but this is where the lawyers, insurance companies - and probably the FAA unless you're right - will start. GC |
#48
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
Aluckyguess wrote:
How could the powered aircraft be at fault if the glider hit him from the side. 1. I love the concept of a 300kg, 60kt glider "hitting" a 10,000kg, 300kt bizjet - especially from the side! You'll notice in the photos that the glider's spar joiner is lodged in the radome, not the side window. It's physically impossible for a 60kt anything to hit a 300kt anything from the side. 2. Because he failed to see and avoid the glider. ALL aircraft in VMC are required to see and avoid other aircraft and they avoid them by following the right of way rules - the powered aircraft alters course to avoid the glider. There is no way to know who is at fault. That's true for you and me. But the courts and the insurance companies and the FAA will certainly find a way no matter how hard it is. They tend to work at these things more persistently than you and I do. If you cant see it you cant avoid it. I think the glider will end up at fault. You can see and avoid anything if you go slowly and carefully enough. Yes, I know that's not how powered aircraft are generally operated but the law says that's how they SHOULD be operated. It's no excuse to hitting a guy on a bike that you were in a big car travelling very fast even if you were under the speed limit. Like when I hit another car from behind, prima facie it's my fault. Not always. ALWAYS, prima facie. GC GC |
#49
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
Jim Logajan wrote:
Graeme Cant gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote: Like when I hit another car from behind, prima facie it's my fault. I'd bet that is no longer the case. There is an insurance fraud tactic where the perps deliberately cause rear-end accidents by pulling in front of an innocent driver's vehicle and slams on the brakes. See for example: http://personalinsure.about.com/cs/v.../aa062203a.htm Yes, we have that scam here too. Nevertheless, the onus is always on the car behind to make his case. As I said, prima facie, the rear car is at fault. GC |
#50
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Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!
Discus 44 wrote:
There have been many photos of the Jet. While this is remarable, are there any photos of the remains of the glider? It might shed some light on where the jet ran into the glider. The Hawker photos do show it. I believe the piece projecting at 1 o'clock from where the radome was is the spar joiner for the outer panel. It would appear the glider was hit just outside mid-span. Probably the right wing. GC Anyone with common sense can see the Jet hit the glider and not the other way around as so many so called :"journalists" have intimated. It is strange that so many unknowledgeable people seem to be arm chair experts about this. I would liek to see FLARM adopted here. It may be a better way than having Xponders and ATC involved with soaring. |
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