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#161
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U¿ytkownik "phil hunt" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci I agree that Polish armed forces (including the air forces) are substandard compared to the major NATO members.. Poland is on par with Spain, I would think. It cannot be compared with DE, US, UK, FR or IT. Hmm. I'm not sure this is true? What fighter does Poland currently use? I'm guessing it's the MiG-29, which is better than anything the RAF has (until Typhoon becomes operational) or the elderly Starfighters italy uses. Well.. the Kosovo war had proven that the type of the plane is secondary in importance as long as it carries the AMRAAM. BVR sets the standard in todays airtoair. MiG29 (as is su27/30/35) is as everybody knows a very capable dogfigter but that is exactly why NATO developed BVR weapons and tactics. I think I can prove a point that it is easier to exploit the technological advance (avionics, radar, datalinking) in BVR then in dogfight. I may call BVR the fight of the avionics whereas dogfight is the fight of the airframe. Currently both the RAF's F3 as well as Luftwaffe's F-4 ICE have the AMRAAM capability albeit I am not sure about the mid-course guidance. I am pretty sure F3 got this sort of upgrade before Iraqi Freedom, but the Phantoms have not. Mid-course guidance is essential in exploiting the capabilities of AMRAAM to the full (range, precision, "kill zone"). Secondly for instance the Phantoms have no sqawk IFF. That is they can be identified as friendlies but they cannot identify others as friendlies. The AWACS/Ground Controler must do that for them. I don't really need to explain how important that is in BVR? In comparsion MiG29 has only a limited BVR capability. The Radar is crap, the RWR and ECM are poor or not existent. It has no R77 capablity (at least the Polish MiGs don't have it; MiG29M, MiG29 SMT of course have R77 in their armoury) Western figters are able to attack better (radar, AMRAAM) and defend better (active built-in ECM). In dogfight it is a class for itself with IRST and helmet cueing. But F3 and F-4 would kill it much earlier in the engagement with an AMRAAM. This scenario proved right with F16MLU/F15 and MiG29 over Serbia. As for attack planes Poland has Su22M4, RAF gas Tornado GR4 and Luftwaffe just simple Tornado IDS, that it plans to upgrade to a standard similar to GR4. GR4 is probably the best attack plane in Europe (maybe Mirage 2000N might be a contender). I don't even want to talk about the aircrew training (RAF again the best in Europe, war experience wise). Armoury, again, is in different class. GPS aided Paveway II and III, Storm Shadow, Brimstone.. Poland as yet has nothing like this. Hence in both air-to-air as air-to-ground Poland is gigantly inferior in comparsion to RAF and Luftwaffe. Yet in comparsion to the Eastern Europe there is nothing except Russia (of course...) Ukraine and maybe Belarus that can match Poland. The Polish army is changing fast. We have 48 F16bl52+ on order, which will be quite a capable plane (with Pantera XR pod, Aim-9X, JSOW, JDAM to name the more novel systems). Army has around 700 Patria AMV on order, which are the most up to date wheeled infantry carriers on the market. That's similar to what Finland, Sweden and Norway use, IIRC. There's also a 6x6 vehicle in the same family, the XA. It seems a capable family of vehicles. I particularly like the idea of a dual 120 mm mortar, shown he Not exactly. AMV is a completely different vehicle then Patria X-Series. As for now there are a few dozens of AMVs on order for Finland as AMOS mortar system carriers... http://members.surfeu.fi/stefan.allen/amv8x8.html .... as can be seen on the photo you provided )) Poland will have an IFV version with 30mm cannon (ATK MK44, which is a vvvvery good cannon) and Spike missiles. All Polish AMVs par a few dozens 6x6 recce platforms will be a 8x8 version (c130 airportable, albeit nobody knows in which C130 version ;P) The UK did have a program for an 8x8 vehicle, the Boxer. They spent large amounts of money together with Germany and the netherlands developing this vehicle (why? there's plenty of wheeled armoured vehicles on the market -- the patria series, the MOWAG Piranha, the BTR-80 and -90, etc. A new one is unlikely to be much better since automotive technology is mature). I think one can divide the wheeled carriers in 8x8 configuration in two categories: one is light and can be represented for instance by Pandour II and Piranha III and a heavy one like Piranha IV, Boxer and the French-project-I-dont-remember-monicker-for. AMV seets exactly between those two categories. We in Poland basically love everything scandinavian (IKEA, SAAB and VOLVO especially . I had sit in the Patria AMV and I can say that in comparsion to Piranha III it is in different class. Ergonomics are great (typicaly scandinavian), quality is superb (scandinavia again) and the price is adequate (scandinavia again). Then Britain decided it didn't want the Boxer, it wanted something lighter that could be easily transported. So it's now paying over the odds (GBP 400k per vehicle IIRC) for something that's likely to be little better than the land rovers ans Saxons the British army already uses (and are cheaper) or the Humvees the USA uses (and are also cheaper). those are different systems. UK is in big mess because: 1) TRACER program got cancelled in the US, and the future british scout vehicle was to be based on this 2) BOXER is really crap - to heavy, to expensive, built for future with todays technology 3) for liason vehicle they have chosen an italian vehicle!!!!! (an Iveco) Anybody here ever drove a Fiat (bad and ugly) or Alfa Romeo (bad and beautiful)? We have just taken over 128 Leopard 2 A4 MTBs from Germany, and now there are talks of upgrading them to the A5 or A6 standard. This is a pretty decent tank, comparable to the British Challenger II. yep. A4 version is comparable and A5 and A6 are better then Challenger2. LeoIIA5/A6 won competitions in Spain, Sweden and Greece against Challenger2. There are around 220 PT-91 Twardy MTBs in line. Those are modifided T72Ms. More of the old T72 might get so called NATO modification (including 120mm smoothbore gun). Britain had some Challenger I tanks, not the latest thing, but still a respectasble tank. Instead of storing them or using them for reserve units, it stupidly gave them away (to Jordan). well... PT-91s are crap but A tank is better then no tank. Spike is longer-ranged than Javelin (4 km v. 2.5 km). Did Poland consider the Russian Kornet (range 5 km)? In contrary to the official line (Poland loves everybody... bla bla bla) Polish forces, and especially the heavy component (MTBs, 150mm artillery, SAMs, SPAAGs) will be tuned to face Russia. The light forces might be deployable wherever they are needed but the heavy ones are to defend Poland from the East. At it will stay that way. History tought as many lessons )) Therefore it is hardly possible to buy russian equipement including the Kornet. It is a great antitank weapon but I am pretty sure russian Shtora/Arena systems are close to perfect in making them useless (after all they would know all the frequencies...). If ever the antitank missiles were used, It would be agains Russian MBTs with Shtora/Arena fitted invading Poland... I am pretty sure all Kornets would miss their targets. The UK is currently considering either Javelin or Spike. go for javelin. They aren't (AFAIK) considering Kornet, presumably because it might offer better value for money (longer range, and probably cheaper). AFAICT, the UK govmt isn't interested in value-for-money when buying military equipment. I think that you are wrong. The problem is that you cannot compare western weapons with russian ones. For instance Su27 are simple stunning visually. But closer you get to them the less atractive they seem. On a paper they look powerful, but in reality they break more often then Yugo. The quality is appaling. The spare parts management system is no existent. Those weapons are not tested to the level the western ones are. Look at the future figters programs. JSF/X35/YF35 is already running for around 8 years and the inservice date is still 5 or 6 years out in the future. Russians just started (or rather are trying to start) their own project with the same in service date as F35. That means that the definition/testing/evaluation phase will be 8 to 10 years shorter!!! Not to mention that what US/UK are spending on JSF might be many times over the WHOLE Russian defence budget for a few years combined. As a result the next russian figter will be technologically inferior, less tested and therefore less capable then F35. In todays world with money comes technology. If somebody disagrees please look at this year Nobel laureates, and find somebody from outside US/UK (Peace Nobel does not count . To sum up the russian weapons are indeed cheaper but it is not a miracle value for money deal, it is just inferior capablity and inferior quality. The Brits should be happy, that their country is able to provide their soldiers with the best warfighting tools for whatever amount of money. After all there is absolutely no chance that the 1k Yugo would be a better car then a 150K Aston Martin DB9. In a sensible world Poland would look to jointly developing with other European partners a family of cheap UAVs/UCAVs/cruise missiles. Cheap and European does not match ) There are two ore-UCAV families in Europe: Swedish and French (Duc series). Remember that France is just buying Israeli UAV (of course rebranded by EADS) as it has non of its own. In compariosn USA has Predator (A and turboprob B version) and of course Global Hawk. It is developing numerous new UAVs as well as at least 2 serious UCAV lines.. I wont even mention DARPA projects (Rotorcrafts and else). From the technological point of view there are the USA then a long gap, then Israel, then a long gap and then maybe Germany/France (KZO UAV). (Finland would be a good partner, since like Poland it doesn't have money to waste on over-priced development programs). We have no money, and no technology. Moreover we would ever need maybe 10 or 15 Predators. It is a waste to put a lot of money on a high risk development to built a dozen of airframes. iof a guy in New Zealand can build a cruise missile in his garage for $5000, this ought to be a sensible proposition. it wasnt a cruise missile.. it was a "cruise" missile. weapons are not built like this. I thin there was a good ilustration of this in one of the West Wing episodes. Dona ask some US Navy officer why they waste 400 bucks for an ashtray. He breaks one and shows her that US Navy glass ashtrays are design to break exactly into 4 pieces with no sharp ends. One would not want to have 100 pieces of a broken regular 5 bucks glass asktray during a life saving manover during a combat. He got the point I would think. Cruise missile cost so much because they need to perform reliably everytime. This guy's "cruise" might have cost 5000 bucks.. but what was it range? how reliable it was? what was the warhead? what was the fuse? what was the navigation systems? how was it EMP shielded? How long is its shelf warranty? What are the redundant systems? Add all of this and you get to the price of JAASM take care lekomin inc |
#162
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Simon Robbins wrote in message
... "tscottme" wrote in message ... Since you seemed to miss the reasons the first time around you might want to read this. snip If I had neighbours like theirs I'd be claiming to be pretty adequately tooled up too. Still doesn't answer the question about where it all went too. You'd think someone who'd have no compunction using such weapons on his own people would eventually use them as a last ditch attempt to save his own regime, if he had them. So you have no trouble making excuses for Saddam? How typical, how long have you been a Liberal? Saddam used the weapons, he declared vast amounts of them, intelligence services all over the world documented the tons and tons of material and machines to produce and maintain the WMDs, and as the article points out, the thorough inspections have only cleared about 10 or 20 of the 130 known munitions storage areas. How many aircraft were buried in the desert of Iraq that we only found out about because locals brought it to our attention. The anthrax stocks could fit in a few 55 gallon drums which take up less space than one of those buried MiGs. In addition people and trucks were streaming out of Iraq into Syria before, during, and just after the war. Next you'll expect me to prove that were are arguing about the issue. -- Scott -------- "Interestingly, we started to lose this war only after the embedded reporters pulled out. Back when we got the news directly from Iraq, there was victory and optimism. Now that the news is filtered through the mainstream media here in America, all we hear is death and destruction and quagmire..." Ann Coulter http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/091703.htm |
#163
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Franck wrote in message
... In fact only the US citizens ignorants like you believe that. I'm sure it's not 'the vast majority'. look on this NG, you're only 5 or 6 with always the same poor discourt -- Franck Since you say this assertion of yours is a fact you can document it can't you? France and Germany were Saddam's largest trading partners and they were pressuring to end sanctions on Saddam before the US forced the UN into its last round of "last chances for Saddam". France announced it would veto the last pre-war US proposed UN resolution before Iraq rejected it. France is the enemy of Western civilization. Maybe they are just bitter at watching their culture and their language become more irrelevant each day. -- Scott -------- "Interestingly, we started to lose this war only after the embedded reporters pulled out. Back when we got the news directly from Iraq, there was victory and optimism. Now that the news is filtered through the mainstream media here in America, all we hear is death and destruction and quagmire..." Ann Coulter http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/091703.htm |
#164
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phil hunt wrote in message
. .. Correct spelling is Mumia Abu-Jamal. Seems to me he was making a point against the death penalty and against perceived miscarriages of justice in the USA. Proving that the French would rather align themselves with a convicted cop-killer or a murdering Iraqi tyrant or Rwandan regime of genocide when they have a choice. That's what we've been saying for years. -- Scott -------- "Interestingly, we started to lose this war only after the embedded reporters pulled out. Back when we got the news directly from Iraq, there was victory and optimism. Now that the news is filtered through the mainstream media here in America, all we hear is death and destruction and quagmire..." Ann Coulter http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/091703.htm |
#165
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Simon Robbins wrote in message
... "tscottme" wrote in message ... Victor Davis Hanson makes a good point that what threatens the French and the radical anti-Americans around the world is the eagerness of their young to embrace what the US offers while considering their local culture as dated. I think the article came over a bit self-indulgent, but I think there's some truth in what he says, (and what you suggest above.) Though in Europe at least I don't think it's about the young considering their own cultures as dated, but often the American money that comes with the imported movies/clothing/music/food ensures that local products aren't able to effectively compete. (Consider that the majority of movie theatres in the UK are now owned by Amercan movie distributors, (like WB for example), it's damn hard to get an audience for home grown movies without at least US investment in the production. ) In effect, we're increasingly not given the choice of accepting American cultural influence but feel it's being forced upon us. Of course there are plenty of fine US movies/clothes/music/food, but whoever remembers the good things? If the locals didn't flock to the McDonalds or Hollywood movies it wouldn't matter. Everyone on the losing end of these equations says the same thing, "our product is better but we are losing due to unfair competition". Detroit auto makers said the same thing when lower-priced, higher-quality Japanese cars kicked their butts. -- Scott -------- "Interestingly, we started to lose this war only after the embedded reporters pulled out. Back when we got the news directly from Iraq, there was victory and optimism. Now that the news is filtered through the mainstream media here in America, all we hear is death and destruction and quagmire..." Ann Coulter http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/091703.htm |
#166
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"tscottme" schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... Franck wrote in message ... In fact only the US citizens ignorants like you believe that. I'm sure it's not 'the vast majority'. look on this NG, you're only 5 or 6 with always the same poor discourt -- Franck Since you say this assertion of yours is a fact you can document it can't you? France and Germany were Saddam's largest trading partners From the CIA factbook: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/iz.html Iraq: Exports: $13 billion f.o.b. (2002 est.) Exports - commodities: crude oil Exports - partners: US 60.6%, France 8.5%, Netherlands 7.4%, Italy 5.8% (2001) Imports: $7.8 billion f.o.b. (2002 est.) Imports - commodities: food, medicine, manufactures Imports - partners: France 19.4%, Australia 14.4%, Italy 10.7%, Germany 9.9% (2001) |
#167
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Could you speak about this meeting dear world history champion ?
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/ of course france sold missile 20 years ago, but in the same time US give chimical weapon to your friend Saddam Hussein. It seems you have a great selective memory. -- Franck www.pegase-airshow.com www.picavia.com |
#168
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US 60.6%, France 8.5%, Netherlands 7.4%, Italy 5.8% (2001)
great information but i'm not sure red necks could understand them -- Franck www.pegase-airshow.com www.picavia.com |
#169
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"Pierre-Henri Baras" wrote: "phil hunt" a écrit dans le message de news: ... On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:47:37 +0200, Pierre-Henri Baras wrote: "phil hunt" a écrit dans le message de news: ... On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:04:14 -0700, Frank Vaughan wrote: Yes, and the decision by the mayor of Paris to name a convicted American cop killer as an honorary citizen was what? Souind bizarre -- do you have details? Pff. The gay, socialist mayor of Paris made Mumia Adbu Jamal (spelling?) an honorary citizen. Correct spelling is Mumia Abu-Jamal. Seems to me he was making a point against the death penalty and against perceived miscarriages of justice in the USA. Absolutely, but as someone here said previously, we might as well start by helping the innocent convicts on death-row. Even better, we could focus on making our judicial system better than it is today. The Paris city council is pretty critised since the socialist/green coalition won the elections 2 years ago. Then again, sollciting MAJ isn't like helping nazis out of Germany. Some people here should try to relax! PHB And those of us here in the States ask why folks in Europe seem to like cop-killers. This guy in PA has lost every appeal of his case. Only the fact that he's some intellectual behind bars blinds people to the fact that until a proper court overturns the verdict and sentence, he's a convicted cop-killer who fully deserves the needle. Unfortunately, other options for his execution are considered cruel and unusual punishment-they should bring Old Sparky out of retirement or build a new gallows for those on Death Row. Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access! |
#170
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could you give me some information about chili genocide made with CIA and US
support ? Do you want other exemples ? again a very selective memory Concerning the cop-killer, it seems that the proof are not evident, not only for the mator of PAris but also for lot of US citizens. How many innocent are in your jails or already killed by your great justice -- Franck www.pegase-airshow.com www.picavia.com |
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