Cheap German gliding

On Oct 6, 11:04 pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
costs included.
Lots of young people, too.

Bye
Andreas

I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
maintenance, fuel etc.


Dan

On Oct 7, 6:54 am, Dan G wrote:
On Oct 6, 11:04 pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:

No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
costs included.
Lots of young people, too.

Bye
Andreas

I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
maintenance, fuel etc.

Dan


I have visited a few German clubs about 8-9 years ago and talked to
the people that run those clubs. I will list what stood out in my
mind.

I noted the following with one club http://www.lsgerbsloeh.de/

This club is surrounded by a relative large population base.
They maximizing the use of the field.
The Field is used to grow hay.
All flying equipment is self insured but for Liability.
The Insurance money is invested and is generating income.
They own a single dual winch, plus one tow plane.
When the need arises the rent additional tow planes.
They stage air events twice a year and the local population is
invited.
This is promoted extensively. It combines an air show with active
participation, complete food services it is common to have 20000
visitors. It generates around 25000 Euros net for the club.
Planning is long-term.
The fleet is update regularly.
The club is in the forefront of generating high calibre contest
pilots. Also the club holds twice a year regular flying seminars which
are attended by Dutch, Belgian and Danes that bring there own
gliders.
Within the club cross Country flying is stressed at all times.
A limited number of none pilot, mostly teenagers about 8-10, are
invited to join each year. If you are under the age of 16 , the
parents are involved as to what is expect of there child,in terms of
time and other commitments, besides the weekend flying.
The facilities are nice which includes and indoor / outdoor
restaurant,
in a park like setting, which is run by the club with full services on
the weekend, generating funds.
Since its humble beginning in 1954 the club had to move twice and has
been at this place for at least 35 years.

All this has been accomplished over time without outside help.
The club has received on numerous occasions the title Centre of
excellence award.
Udo

On Oct 7, 9:55 am, Udo wrote:
On Oct 7, 6:54 am, Dan G wrote:

On Oct 6, 11:04 pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:

No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
costs included.
Lots of young people, too.

Bye
Andreas

I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
maintenance, fuel etc.

Dan

I have visited a few German clubs about 8-9 years ago and talked to
the people that run those clubs. I will list what stood out in my
mind.

I noted the following with one clubhttp://www.lsgerbsloeh.de/

This club is surrounded by a relative large population base.
They maximizing the use of the field.
The Field is used to grow hay.
All flying equipment is self insured but for Liability.
The Insurance money is invested and is generating income.
They own a single dual winch, plus one tow plane.
When the need arises the rent additional tow planes.
They stage air events twice a year and the local population is
invited.
This is promoted extensively. It combines an air show with active
participation, complete food services it is common to have 20000
visitors. It generates around 25000 Euros net for the club.
Planning is long-term.
The fleet is update regularly.
The club is in the forefront of generating high calibre contest
pilots. Also the club holds twice a year regular flying seminars which
are attended by Dutch, Belgian and Danes that bring there own
gliders.
Within the club cross Country flying is stressed at all times.
A limited number of none pilot, mostly teenagers about 8-10, are
invited to join each year. If you are under the age of 16 , the
parents are involved as to what is expect of there child,in terms of
time and other commitments, besides the weekend flying.
The facilities are nice which includes and indoor / outdoor
restaurant,
in a park like setting, which is run by the club with full services on
the weekend, generating funds.
Since its humble beginning in 1954 the club had to move twice and has
been at this place for at least 35 years.

All this has been accomplished over time without outside help.
The club has received on numerous occasions the title Centre of
excellence award.
Udo

We had a young Czech glider pilot here for a couple of years building
power time and ratings. He's now flying regional European airlines.
His club owned the airfield and leased out several buildings for
commercial/industrial use which resulted in the club operating at
_minimal_ charges.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley wrote:
We had a young Czech glider pilot here for a couple of years building
power time and ratings. He's now flying regional European airlines.
His club owned the airfield and leased out several buildings for
commercial/industrial use which resulted in the club operating at
_minimal_ charges.

The key factor here is how the club came to own the airfield. One
common factor among the clubs I visited in the UK last year is that they
owned beautiful grass WW II era airfields. When I asked how that
happened, the stories were pretty much the same, the government sold to
them for a relatively low price, with the concurrence of the local towns
who didn't want them turned into housing developments or industry.

Here in the USA, such a notion would be completely ludicrous 8^)

Marc

On Oct 7, 1:55 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
We had a young Czech glider pilot here for a couple of years building
power time and ratings. He's now flying regional European airlines.
His club owned the airfield and leased out several buildings for
commercial/industrial use which resulted in the club operating at
_minimal_ charges.

The key factor here is how the club came to own the airfield. One
common factor among the clubs I visited in the UK last year is that they
owned beautiful grass WW II era airfields. When I asked how that
happened, the stories were pretty much the same, the government sold to
them for a relatively low price, with the concurrence of the local towns
who didn't want them turned into housing developments or industry.

Here in the USA, such a notion would be completely ludicrous 8^)

Marc

I wonder if anyone from the US who was in the sport a while back (say
1950s thorugh 1970s) can explain what was different in the US. Why
weren't clubs acquiring land? There are a few clubs around (PGC and
M-ASA come to mind) which bought land that has now guaranteed their
(financial) future. By the time I got into soaring in the early
1980s, there was already the problem that land near population centers
(i.e. one hour or less drive) was already becoming prohibitively
expensive. Today, for example, getting anything within about an 1:30
drive of NYC would mean an investment well into the $ millions.

Just curious to get some historical perspective.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

"Papa3" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 7, 1:55 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
We had a young Czech glider pilot here for a couple of years building
power time and ratings. He's now flying regional European airlines.
His club owned the airfield and leased out several buildings for
commercial/industrial use which resulted in the club operating at
_minimal_ charges.

The key factor here is how the club came to own the airfield. One
common factor among the clubs I visited in the UK last year is that they
owned beautiful grass WW II era airfields. When I asked how that
happened, the stories were pretty much the same, the government sold to
them for a relatively low price, with the concurrence of the local towns
who didn't want them turned into housing developments or industry.

Here in the USA, such a notion would be completely ludicrous 8^)

Marc

I wonder if anyone from the US who was in the sport a while back (say
1950s thorugh 1970s) can explain what was different in the US. Why
weren't clubs acquiring land? There are a few clubs around (PGC and
M-ASA come to mind) which bought land that has now guaranteed their
(financial) future. By the time I got into soaring in the early
1980s, there was already the problem that land near population centers
(i.e. one hour or less drive) was already becoming prohibitively
expensive. Today, for example, getting anything within about an 1:30
drive of NYC would mean an investment well into the $ millions.

Just curious to get some historical perspective.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)


There are many reasons but one is that the US is somewhat unique in having
publicly funded general aviation airports, some of which host soaring
operations. The question was and is, "If you can get guaranteed access to
airport facilities on the taxpayer's nickel, why buy your own?" Right now,
the utilization of many of these public GA airports is way down due to the
high price of avgas so more may become available for soaring operations.

I'm not saying that using public airports is the best idea in the long run
but it does have some advantages. One of the big ones is that the club
management can concentrate on gliders and tugs and not involve itself in
real estate. If there is an FBO who does a good job of providing tows at a
reasonable price, the club has only to manage its gliders which can be a
very good thing.

On the other hand, clubs with their own airfields and clubhouses seem to be
more stable in the long run. As for the price of that real estate, it has
always been "way too expensive" in current dollars and very cheap in
historical dollars. If you buy it now, sooner or later, it will look like a
cheap price.


Bill Daniels

I wonder if anyone from the US who was in the sport a while back (say
1950s thorugh 1970s) can explain what was different in the US.

I think the main reason is that in Germany (actually, in most European
countries), Gliding is a club activity. Only a minority of pilots own
their own glider. It's accepted that if you want to fly, you have to
show up at 09:00 in the morning and only go home when the last glider is
de-rigged and in its trailer. I'm not sure this would be compatible with
the US culture. Of course, no payed staff. And there are usually
something like 30 or 40 hours of compulsory club work, mostly spent to
work on the gliders or on other material during the winter.

Aditionally, this low price is only achieved by clubs which do mainly
winch launches. Not all clubs are lucky enough to reach their thermals
from the winch. If you have to aero tow, then add another 1000€.

On 7 Okt., 17:55, Udo wrote:
On Oct 7, 6:54 am, Dan G wrote:

On Oct 6, 11:04 pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:

No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
costs included.
Lots of young people, too.

Bye
Andreas

I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
maintenance, fuel etc.

Dan

I have visited a few German clubs about 8-9 years ago and talked to
the people that run those clubs. I will list what stood out in my
mind.

I noted the following with one clubhttp://www.lsgerbsloeh.de/

This club is surrounded by a relative large population base.

This is a great advantage but please keep in mind that there are also
at least 6 other airfields with glider operations within a radius of
30km.

They maximizing the use of the field.
The Field is used to grow hay.

The grass ist always kept low for safety reasons...no good for growing
hay.

All flying equipment is self insured but for Liability.
The Insurance money is invested and is generating income.
They own a single dual winch, plus one tow plane.
When the need arises the rent additional tow planes.

I have never seen a second towplane in Langenfeld.

They stage air events twice a year and the local population is
invited.

Only once a year.

This is promoted extensively. It combines an air show with active
participation, complete food services it is common to have 20000
visitors. It generates around 25000 Euros net for the club.
Planning is long-term.
The fleet is update regularly.
The club is in the forefront of generating high calibre contest
pilots. Also the club holds twice a year regular flying seminars which
are attended by Dutch, Belgian and Danes that bring there own
gliders.

As far as I know there have not been any really big seminars in the
past years.

Within the club cross Country flying is stressed at all times.
A limited number of none pilot, mostly teenagers about 8-10, are
invited to join each year. If you are under the age of 16 , the
parents are involved as to what is expect of there child,in terms of
time and other commitments, besides the weekend flying.
The facilities are nice which includes and indoor / outdoor
restaurant,
in a park like setting, which is run by the club with full services on
the weekend, generating funds.

This is going a bit to far;-) There is no restaurant in Langenfeld and
as far as I know never has been. There are other clubs which use
restaurants as a source of income.

Since its humble beginning in 1954 the club had to move twice and has
been at this place for at least 35 years.

All this has been accomplished over time without outside help.
The club has received on numerous occasions the title Centre of
excellence award.
Udo

The club in Langenfeld has its own share of problems and definatly is
not as good as portrayed.

As far as I know German clubs are often far cheaper than US clubs
because they are struktured differently. Members are expected to do
all the work themselves. Everybody has a job to to from mowing the
gras, fleet maintenance or instructing. Maintenance only costs the
materials used. Fuel is not a problem because a winch launch barely
uses 1 lite r of diesel. Airfields are often in posession of the clubs
or cheaply leased from the city. The biggest costs in our club are
insurance costs. If you insure your fleet yourself then you can save
even more.

Flying is not really cheaper in germany. We just pay less money and
more time. A normal club member will spent about 10 half days each
year on the winch (or doing some other job on the field), is expected
to stay and keep the operation running the whole day if he wants to
participate (1hour of flying means spending the whole day at the
field) and has to work 60 - 80 hours in the winter doining maintenance
or other chores. Most clubs depent on a small number of people who are
willing to invest even more time into the club.

Of all the many points I made, one point was incorrect, it was 10
years ago and done from memory.

As to your contra points.
In 1998 the restaurant was real I had my launch there,
and my black forest cake and coffee in the afternoon and I paid for
it. For a visitor it looked very nice. Normally my standards are a
bit higher for a normal dining experience.

As to the second tow plane. I state it is rented when needed
It certainly was needed when I saw 30 glider lined up
at 9:00 am, half the fleet were guest and many from other countries
and it was not a contest.

Hay was being made, the rolls of bails were moved over to the side
near the fence.

As to the air event my mistake it only takes place once a year.
The annual Club booklet, that was laying about, stated the club earned
50000.00 Marks net from that event.

As for the fees, as seen on the current website
one time club entry fee E 520.00
every spring E130.00
monthly E 14.50
1 hour of flying all inclusive E 7.00
3 hours E 21.00

That would come to about E 1000.00 if you fly 100 hrs a year
Take your pick with the gliders.
I think that is a very good deal in spite of the fact you would have
to spent 75 hours a year helping maintaining the club.
I am impressed.
On the other hand, I personally would not like the highly structured
environment. I remember some one telling me at the time that
club members can buy off some of that time.

Udo

On 8 Okt., 20:05, Udo wrote:
Of all the many points I made, one point was incorrect, it was 10
years ago and done from memory.

As to your contra points.
In 1998 the restaurant was real I had my launch there,
and my black forest cake and coffee in the afternoon and I paid for
it. For a visitor it looked very nice. Normally my standards are a
bit higher for a normal dining experience.

That must have been somwhere else or a very rare occasion;-) You can
usually get coffee, a bread bun, maybe a piece of cake or a chocklate
bar but not anything like a real meal. Only exceptions I know of are
the occasional barbecues. I guess the point you are trying to make is
that running a restaurant is a good source of additional income and I
totally agree. In Leverkusen, an airfield 15km fürther to the south
there is a small restaurant in the gliding club with a nice terrace
overlooking the field which is open to the public.

As to the second tow plane. I state it is rented when needed
It certainly was needed when I saw 30 glider lined up
at 9:00 am, half the fleet were guest and many from other countries
and it was not a contest.


Hay was being made, the rolls of bails were moved over to the side
near the fence.

I might have to agree. I took a look at a picture I made in 2004 and
there is high grass to the right of the runway http://www.kesselsweier.de/cam/langenfeld.jpg
.. I never really noticed it before.

As to the air event my mistake it only takes place once a year.
The annual Club booklet, that was laying about, stated the club earned
50000.00 Marks net from that event.

As for the fees, as seen on the current website
one time club entry fee E 520.00
every spring E130.00
monthly E 14.50
1 hour of flying all inclusive E 7.00
3 hours E 21.00

That would come to about E 1000.00 if you fly 100 hrs a year
Take your pick with the gliders.
I think that is a very good deal in spite of the fact you would have
to spent 75 hours a year helping maintaining the club.
I am impressed.
On the other hand, I personally would not like the highly structured
environment. I remember some one telling me at the time that
club members can buy off some of that time.

Udo

I hope my contra points didn't sound all to offensive. I just wanted
to say that in my opinion the soaring world in germany is not as
perfect as it may seem after reading your post;-) Alltogether it is
nice to hear that you had such a good impression.