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#21
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
Douglas Eagleson wrote:
Douglas Eagleson wrote: KDR wrote: Has any air force ever tried or practiced providing a consistent CAP over a fleet by air-to-air refueling? I am wondering whether or not RAF Tornado F3 units had ever done that. I am an avocate of adding afterburners to the A-10 for just this reason. A long duration of coverage is the defensive role. A five hour rotation is possible for the Warthog upgraded. A radar targeted front cannon is real cool. Mach 1.5 is possible even for the odd shape. And this is enough for coverage air to air fighting. A short evasive is the basic missile defense. A basic airframe is perfect for the defensive role fighter. Every responder need to get their noodle functioning before commenting. Did I ever say the afterburner would always be used? Used or not, it's extra weight to haul around. Also, an engine with an afterburner (and thus designed for higher speed flight) won't be as fuel-efficient in cruise as the very thrifty high-bypass turbofans currently used, which were designed for a lower-speed environment. Nowhere did I make that claim of good practice. And the idiots ignorent on how to launch the missile from the hanger added are idiots. Why upgrade to a fighter without air to air missles? Well, you said "radar targeted front canon," not "missiles." Don't expect people to assume things you don't mention. A rader pod is placable on the nose or the fuel pods. There's no place to mount a pod "on the nose' of the A-10. With a radar in the nose, assuming you can find space, gun vibration will do nasty things to its reliability. In underwing pods, there are other sources of vibration, plus challenges in keeping the radar boresighted and adjusted. Also the antenna diameter of a pod will be much smaller than a typical fighter nose radar. That means much less effective range. THe clean slow flight without afterburner gives up to five hours of coverage duration. Of course, now you're lugging around afterburners (dead weight in cruise), a large (draggy) radar pod, and apparently missiles. You can expect much less endurance than the ideal clean configured cruise. My claim is a good claim. NEw engines would make the thing useful. It's damned useful now, in its designed role as a close air support aircraft. But a fighter it's not. New engines won't push the aircraft anywhere close to Mach 1, nor give it the fast transonic acceleration you want in a missile platform. Look, what you're proposing now is effectively a slower, less optimized version of the F6D Missileer of the 1960s. That was dropped because it would have been lousy at anything other than pure fleet air defense (and not necessarily great at that). -- Tom Schoene lid To email me, replace "invalid" with "net" |
#22
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
On 5 Feb 2006 07:11:52 -0800, "Douglas Eagleson"
wrote: KDR wrote: Has any air force ever tried or practiced providing a consistent CAP over a fleet by air-to-air refueling? I am wondering whether or not RAF Tornado F3 units had ever done that. I am an avocate of adding afterburners to the A-10 for just this reason. A long duration of coverage is the defensive role. While great as a "mud mover" I'm with the majority in agreeing that this is not a cost effective (or maybe even effective) suggestion. A five hour rotation is possible for the Warthog upgraded. A radar targeted front cannon is real cool. Put A/B on an A-10 and you don't enhance duration. You might get it to go real fast as long as the gas lasts. Then you have the "transit time" issue. If he transits in A/B his on station time won't be much. If he transits out of A/B (heavily encumbered by missles, radar pods, etc.) he'll be slower than molassas in January in International Falls. Which means you need a lot more airframes to keep an effective umbrella. These problems might have solutions, but eventually you have to address the problem of adding layer upon layer of complexity. Mach 1.5 is possible even for the odd shape. And this is enough for coverage air to air fighting. A short evasive is the basic missile defense. You can make a barn door supersonic if you put enough thrust behind it. But that doesn't make it anymore than a barn door going really fast. A basic airframe is perfect for the defensive role fighter. Maybe so, but it violates the Vince Lombardi Principle: The best defense is a good offense. Every warrior needs a sword and shield to be effective. While this might (note the conditional) be a dynomite shield it's not worth a bucket of warm spit as a sword. Bill Kambic Bill Kambic Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão |
#23
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote in message
ups.com... Well the reality is you need to actually read and be a real person. Your wasted words are just evidence of common lazy jackass. My, my, my, all that wit -- and charm, too, into the bargain. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) |
#24
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 5 Feb 2006 06:45:53 -0800, "KDR" wrote: Has any air force ever tried or practiced providing a consistent CAP over a fleet by air-to-air refueling? I am wondering whether or not RAF Tornado F3 units had ever done that. NATO called the concept TASMO (Tactical Air Support of Maritime Operations) and it involved land-based tactical aircraft tasked with both offensive and defensive mission in support of ships. Convoys in proximity to land masses can be easily covered as well as fleets supporting amphibious ops. The hard part is coordinating the airspace and fire control, since much fleet air defense is handled by SAMs and carrier-based aircraft. With everyone on board coordinated by AWACS it becomes easier. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com Many thanks for the reply. I enjoyed your book a lot. In case of defensive missions, what was the Torrejon F-4C's 'typical' mission radius? Did it normally involve air-to-air refueling? |
#25
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
Andrew Chaplin wrote:
My, my, my, all that wit -- and charm, too, into the bargain. You should have read him *before* the Dale Carnegie class... |
#26
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
In article ,
on Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:52:19 -0500, Andrew Chaplin attempted to say ..... "Douglas Eagleson" wrote in message ups.com... Well the reality is you need to actually read and be a real person. Your wasted words are just evidence of common lazy jackass. My, my, my, all that wit -- and charm, too, into the bargain. Well, I think you are half right..... -- When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant. |
#27
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
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#28
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
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#29
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
The USN does IFR for fleet CAP right now. However, the crew runs out of
stamina after seom indeterminate time. having spent over 10 hours in an F4 cockpit, I can tell you I really wouldn't feel comfortable engaging an enemy after ten hours aloft. The aircraft themselves have aloft limits; new ones do replenish the oxygen system which was one of the F4's limits. The oil supply, with decent engines, shouldn't be a problem. But somewhere short of 24 hours aloft the crew will be degraded. not os bad on big birds where you can get up, stretch, scratch, eat and drink, use the the john and maybe even get a nap. The other bad note is the consumption of aircraft time. Each aircraft can fly only so many hours.cycles before maintenance must be performed. So you have a limit consisting of maintenance capablity (manhours, skills and space) and parts availability, not to mention fuel for the birds. As for the A10, with only IR missiles and the 30mm GAU8 and no radar it's not much of a interceptor. Compare it to an F14 - which, alas, are now retired to the Boneyard. As for supersonic flight in an A10 - it is to laugh. Lord knows what the critical mach is, or what would happen when it reaches Mcrit. It's got the general aerodynamics of a WW2 fighter, thick airfoils, fixed horizontal fins, conventional elevators, so I imagine it would tuck (nose down) and stay tucked regardless of what the poor pilot did until it slowed below Mcrit. Maybe some test pilot has probed the transsonic region in it. Maybe. Walt BJ |
#30
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Consistent CAP over a fleet from a land base
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote:
:No the enhanced airframe is just a missile/rader launching system. : :A gun battle would result in the loossing of the A-10. It would not :beat the aircraft you mention as the traditional dog fight. A radar :game is is the actual game, though. : :The game is duration of fighter aloft time. Then you should be using an S-3. It's already carrier rated and has loiter time to burn. By the time you beef up an A-10 to take cats and traps you've lost all that loiter time to structural weight. -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson |
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