If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Chilling tale by Dick Rutan
Moe wrote:
why would a "fighter pilot General" be debating a point that was (in terms of task prioritization) largely ridiculously irrelevant, given the situation at hand ? Ask the General when you meet him. What did he know? What was his condition? Without a record of the conversation between the cockpits of Strobe 01, we'll never even have a clue in this life. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...02/ai_n9030914 Jack |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Chilling tale by Dick Rutan
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 07:43:57 -0400, "St. John Smythe"
wrote: Moe wrote: But the General outranked him and ordered him to leave it in the OFF position, thereby making each seat a single-initiated ejection". So, in a debate regarding flight safety, who is supposed to have the last word, the PIC or the ranking officer? IIRC OPNAV 3710 Series says that the Mission Commander has the final say in operational decisions unless over-ridden by a flag officer or an officer n tactical command (air wing commander, squadron commander, etc.). That authority includes the power to over-ride "safety of flight" questions. If a senior officer over-rides the normal decision making chain then they assume the responsibility for the outcome (good or bad). I presume the Air Force has a similar rule. It seems to me that the General's decision was flawed; while the General might always be right he's always the General. The GIB had no choice but to go along. To the guys wth F-4 time: The story notes a small fire forward (in the camera bay?). When the rear canopy separated and an airflow channel developed, could that blast of high speed air (300kts.+++?) have created enough of a "blow torch" effect to have incapacitated/killed the pilot even assuming he had his mask on, visor down, Nomex properly secured, etc.? Bill Kambic Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Chilling tale by Dick Rutan
St. John Smythe wrote:
Moe wrote: But the General outranked him and ordered him to leave it in the OFF position, thereby making each seat a single-initiated ejection". So, in a debate regarding flight safety, who is supposed to have the last word, the PIC or the ranking officer? Yes. Seriously, unless the "seeing eye Major" was an IP, the General was probably both ranking officer and PIC. But Generals get a lot of deference, either way. Jack |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Chilling tale by Dick Rutan
|
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Chilling tale by Dick Rutan
588 wrote:
St. John Smythe wrote: Moe wrote: But the General outranked him and ordered him to leave it in the OFF position, thereby making each seat a single-initiated ejection". So, in a debate regarding flight safety, who is supposed to have the last word, the PIC or the ranking officer? Yes. Great answer Jack, you shudda stopped there!... STM, if it had been me, I'd have selected 'command' then if any flak had developed I'd have said shrug "Dunno...I selected off" -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Chilling tale by Dick Rutan
Dave in San Diego wrote:
cut Distance means little when there is no radio to receive what is being transmitted. The UHF radio in the F-4 resided under the back seat, requiring removal of the seat bucket (and included rocket motor) for maintenance, making it a huge PITA for the tweets and AMEs. Ejection essentially kills the radio. Dave in San Diego Of course but that wasn't the point, he seemed to think that he 'was too far away' at, what a couple hundred feet at most? and that getting closer would help when of course it wouldn't make the slightest difference at all...but, as someone said, stress does odd things to one's common sense. -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Chilling tale by Dick Rutan
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:30:43 GMT, Gord Beaman
wrote: 588 wrote: St. John Smythe wrote: Moe wrote: But the General outranked him and ordered him to leave it in the OFF position, thereby making each seat a single-initiated ejection". So, in a debate regarding flight safety, who is supposed to have the last word, the PIC or the ranking officer? Yes. Great answer Jack, you shudda stopped there!... STM, if it had been me, I'd have selected 'command' then if any flak had developed I'd have said shrug "Dunno...I selected off" In the AF, the "aircraft commander" is the decision maker. That would be the front-seater in an F-4. This changes if the other crew-member is an instructor pilot ACTING IN THE IP ROLE. AF regulations have long specified that a GO must be accompanied by an IP in a two-place airplane. Dunno if there was an IP on the flight in this instance. I've played IP to GOs in the F-4 and there was no doubt in my mind who was in charge and I made it clear to the GO during pre-flight briefing. That being said, the command-selector valve in the R/C/P was installed to provide an option for just this situation. In normal operation, if the F/C/P initiated ejection it would by default be a dual sequenced ejection with the R/C/P going first and the front seat following three-tenths of a second later. This deconflicts the seats and keeps the back cockpit safe from rocket burns. If the rear seat initiated a normal ejection, the rear only would go. With the Command Selector Valve installed (this was a TCTO mod), when rotated 90 degrees, it allowed for dual sequenced ejection to be initiated from the rear also. The idea was with the front seater incapacitated or unable to initiate the ejection, the GIB could get both out. My briefing was always for the GIB to leave the valve in normal position as I didn't want to be surprised by him determining we needed to eject for some reason. I would only allow the CSV to be rotated at the time I determined a necessity to do so, such as in an in-flight emergency where I believed there would be a high-probability of needing that option. I specifically told the GIB that if he ever rotated the handle without my express orders and I found out about it I would kill him--slowly and painfully. In this situation, I'm pretty sure I would have initiated the ejection from the front or directed rotation of the handle in case things deteriorated faster than I could control. The possibility of ejection causing flash fire into the remaining cockpit was pretty well known. As it was, in my experience flying the F-4 for about 1600 hours, I never had cause to tell the GIB to rotate the handle. Other folks would brief that they wanted the handle rotated at all times. Some would rotate only for T/O and landings. Different strokes. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Chilling tale by Dick Rutan
Tex Houston wrote: "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message oups.com... Ed Rasimus wrote: On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 15:53:39 GMT, Ed Rasimus wrote: As is Don Hartnett who was on one of those BUFFs, Harten. That was Don Harten. They say the memory is the second thing to go...forgot what's first. Ed Rasimus IIRC forgetfulness is a good way to not remember things like anniversary's etc. The two accounts emerging about the General's death are different, would the OP's account of D. Rutans statement be a fabrication? I'm a bit confused. Ken Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) Ken, Two different incidents. Notice the difference in names? July 7, 1967 MajGen William J. Crumm (KIA) July 23, 1968 MajGen Robert Worley (KIA) Regards, Tex Houston Thanks Mr. Houston, I owe ya one! I see that now... http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwc4.htm Regards Ken |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Dick Marlow's accident in July 2003 | rkane33 | Piloting | 3 | July 5th 10 06:27 PM |
Burt Rutan "pissed off" | Tarver Engineering | Military Aviation | 22 | September 3rd 03 04:10 AM |
Burt Rutan | av8r | Military Aviation | 3 | August 24th 03 05:06 PM |