To overhaul or not to Overhaul, that is the question-

OH, going on the 'I'm getting her as a fun project' thing...

Does anyone know anything about kits or instructions to modify the
PA28-140 to electric trim (I know the Cherokee STC for electric trim
covers the Cherokee 140, but that's about as much as google searching
online has taught me)? About my only complaint with the older hershey
Cherokees is the roof mounted trim lever, this is going to be a very
early project.

EridanMan wrote:
: I'm a mechanically inclined type, and this is _exactly_ my plan.

If your mechanic is OK with you doing a lot of work like that, you should be
able to pull it off.

: I'm looking for a solid, corrosion free 'base' to start building up a
: plane... Think of it as 'experimental aviation light'- I don't want to
: wait 3000 hours to start flying, but I don't mind a plane that's going
: to take some elbow-grease along with the purchase price.

Same boat here... I just wanted something that was in flyable condition while
I worked on it. Two weeks after I brought it home and a week after my PP checkride, I
flew mine to Ohio (approx 200nm) to see my sister. Nothing but my new handheld
NAV/COM and a borrowed handheld GPS.... and I debated as to whether or not I needed
the latter.

: The low time airframe and complete lack of corrosion are two huge
: pluses. It also seems like there is quite a cult following for the old
: Hershey-wing Pipers, aerodynamic modifications are plentiful and
: inexpensive (how useful they are remains to be seen of course), but I
: still like the idea.

Some of the mods are worth it, some less so. You didn't say the year of the
bird (standard T-layout makes it '69 or newer like mine... older had shotgun-blast
panel)

: The ship is going to need an IFR stack (currently VFR only, and
: eventually I want my IFR ticket), but as you said, King IFR stacks are
: amazingly cheap right now (I guess everyone is dumping them in the rush
: to glass, a trend that will only accellerate IMHO).

Old-school IFR (in my case, DME, VOR-DME RNAV, ILS, and VFR-GPS/COM) is a good
bargain... especially the RNAV.

Of course I just found out yesterday that my transponder and extra slide-in
transponder are both TU.

: I got a chance to get my elbows dirty yesterday in the plane (before
: hand I was dealing with world of mouth from a friend, the plane is
: being sold by an aquaintance of sed friend).

: The wings and sheetmetal was pristine (original stenciling still
: clearly visible, you could probably eat of the wing spar metal, etc).
: interior was a mixed bag, plastics are all flawless, but the panel is
: in sorry shape and the plane doesn't even have an intercom (previous
: owner used speaker+handheld). Seats Rails were flawless (and all seat
: adjustments), but the seats themselves need re-upulstering (and the
: arm-rests were all cracking and showing their internal foam).

Check for corrosion on the trailing edges of the wings under the flaps. Also
way up behind the panel and under the carpet by the door. Lots of leaks in PA-28's.

: The only real 'ugly' I came across was the Fuel tanks... red goo in
: both. I'm already pricing salvage replacement tanks and fuel system.

Technically speaking, tanks cannot be replaced except with new. The holes are
drilled individually for every plane. The fuel tank is of course a structural part of
the wing, so they're kinda important.

: I'm amazed how simple the plane is... the entire fuel system looks well
: within my mechanical abilities (and the parts don't seem to be too
: bad). I did confirm that the fuel tank, while ugly inside, did not
: leak within the wing (one of my concerns).

: I'd also probably do the interior work myself (within legality in
: regards to the panel, of course).

: I'm having a mechanic go over her tomorrow to find anything I missed in
: my rather thorough inspection... assuming there aren't any
: showstoppers, I'm ready to put down a deposit.

: My final determination came down to one simple equasion... Purchase
: price + Engine Overhaul Value of comparible planes on barnstormers...

: What else can I say?

Of course pull the prop through and feel the compression. Borescope wouldn't
be a bad idea if you're so equipped. Engine-wise, you could also pull off the valve
covers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods to measure the cam lift. If it hasn't
flown at all in the long time however, it might take a few hours of flying before
rusting/pitting of a corroded cam would show up as spalling and loss of lift.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

EridanMan wrote:
Does anyone know anything about kits or instructions to modify the
PA28-140 to electric trim (I know the Cherokee STC for electric trim
covers the Cherokee 140, but that's about as much as google searching
online has taught me)? About my only complaint with the older hershey
Cherokees is the roof mounted trim lever, this is going to be a very
early project.


I don't know if it's included on my equipment list as an option, but you might
be able to add it by just finding the original equipment parts. I'm not sure
I'd bother though. The overhead trim is REAL easy to get use to, and in my
experience, is much lighter to move than the between the seats trim. In short
order you'll be reaching up and spinning it one way or the other with your index
finger. It's nice.

--- Jay

--

Jay Masino
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

Jay Masino wrote:
: I don't know if it's included on my equipment list as an option, but you might
: be able to add it by just finding the original equipment parts. I'm not sure
: I'd bother though. The overhead trim is REAL easy to get use to, and in my
: experience, is much lighter to move than the between the seats trim. In short
: order you'll be reaching up and spinning it one way or the other with your index
: finger. It's nice.

: --- Jay

That's what I was trying to say with my previous post. It's not that bad to
get used to. I doubt it'd be easy to retrofit to floor-mounted trim, and I'm sure
electric is either impossible or really pricey.

Given that you've got a project plane, that modification should be at the very
very bottom of an already long list IMO.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Cory,

Thank you for all the feedback, its nice to talk to someone whose been
down the path I'm about to commit too.

Is there a good online owners group that you would recommend?

The engine is going to go under borescope today. Also - I did notice
what I would consider 'normal to light' levels of corrosion underneath
the interior trim immediately in front of the door (I've seen this
corrosion in virtually every plane I've looked at, and what I did see
was just superficial surface stuff). Shining a lite through the dash,
I could also see what looked like a bit of corrosion underneath where
the windscreen intersects the fuselage - I wasn't able to get a good
look- but I've leat the FBO whose doing the pre-purchase know its there
and that I'm concerned about it.

I did not look at the rear wing near the flaps (although, fwiw, the
flaps were the absolute smoothest 'buttery' motion I've ever seen in
any piper, the mechanism felt brand new, and there was practically no
play in either flap.

I didn't realize that the fuel tanks weren't swappable parts... The
FBO says that they know a shop where we can send off both tanks to be
reconditioned and resealed for ~5-600 each, might just take that route.

As far as aerodynamic mods, any thoughts on the 2550 dollar package
provided by pipermods.com? It includes wingtips, wing seals, vortex
generators, stabilator tips, Prop tip mod (The ship's prop is brand new
and absolutely flawless) and prop repitching.

Beyond that, all I'd want to do (eventually, not initially) is high
performance wheel pants and a powerflow exhaust... But all in good
time.

: As far as aerodynamic mods, any thoughts on the 2550 dollar package
: provided by pipermods.com? It includes wingtips, wing seals, vortex
: generators, stabilator tips, Prop tip mod (The ship's prop is brand new
: and absolutely flawless) and prop repitching.

I don't know about all of them, but I can say that the AMR&D VG's work well.
Wingtips (whether Hoerner-style or droop-tip "Batwing" tips) help reduce sink.
Prop-tip mods supposed to help a little, along with the exhaust. The other ones I'm
not too excited about.

If you're thinking of autogas, you cannot run high-compression unless you've
got the clamshell cowling and buy the Petersen STC.

: Beyond that, all I'd want to do (eventually, not initially) is high
: performance wheel pants and a powerflow exhaust... But all in good
: time.

Make it go first... then worry about mods.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

EridanMan wrote:


The only real 'ugly' I came across was the Fuel tanks... red goo in
both. I'm already pricing salvage replacement tanks and fuel system.


Used tanks off another airplane probably won't fit. The piper tanks are
trimmed and drilled by hand and will only fit the airplane they were
trimmed and drilled for. If you replace them, you'll have either
replace the whole wing, or get new tanks from piper (and then trim and
drill them yourself). A better option would be to send the tanks out to
one of the two shops that do tank resealing and have them disassemble,
clean-out and reseal the tanks. You'll have to repaint them when you
get them back, as part of the process strips the paint. The cost is
around $600/tank. Call one of those shops and discuss your situation
with them. Skycraft used to do it, but I think they sold their tank
resealing business. I don't recall the name of the company that took it
over, nor the name of the other company. You could also have your local
mechanic do it if he is good with sheet metal, but you may end up paying
more.

It may also be possible to use a solvent to clean the goo out of the
tanks. Worst that would happen is it might also take out the sealant
and make it necessary to get the tanks resealed.

On Wed, 10 May 2006 16:46:56 -0400, Ray Andraka
wrote:


Used tanks off another airplane probably won't fit. The piper tanks are
trimmed and drilled by hand and will only fit the airplane they were
trimmed and drilled for. If you replace them, you'll have either
replace the whole wing, or get new tanks from piper (and then trim and
drill them yourself). A better option would be to send the tanks out to
one of the two shops that do tank resealing and have them disassemble,
clean-out and reseal the tanks. You'll have to repaint them when you
get them back, as part of the process strips the paint. The cost is
around $600/tank. Call one of those shops and discuss your situation
with them. Skycraft used to do it, but I think they sold their tank
resealing business. I don't recall the name of the company that took it
over, nor the name of the other company. You could also have your local
mechanic do it if he is good with sheet metal, but you may end up paying
more.

It may also be possible to use a solvent to clean the goo out of the
tanks. Worst that would happen is it might also take out the sealant
and make it necessary to get the tanks resealed.

Sending the tanks out for a skycraft type rebuild is a no-brainer. You
do it once, and they will likely last forever.

Not sure what age this particular aircraft is, but finding old
Cherokee's with sloshed tanks used to be quite common.

TC

On 9 May 2006 17:07:48 -0700, "EridanMan"
wrote:

snip

The wings and sheetmetal was pristine (original stenciling still
clearly visible, you could probably eat of the wing spar metal, etc).
interior was a mixed bag, plastics are all flawless, but the panel is
in sorry shape and the plane doesn't even have an intercom (previous
owner used speaker+handheld). Seats Rails were flawless (and all seat
adjustments), but the seats themselves need re-upulstering (and the
arm-rests were all cracking and showing their internal foam).

snip

Have seen Cherokee's that looked like mirrors inside the wings, have
also seem them white & flakey.

You need to take a good look at all the steel fittings. They were
never really properly painted/protected from new, and can get really
ugly.

Others have made fuel tank suggestions. Having gunk in the tanks is
not uncommon.

TC

wrote in message

Sending the tanks out for a skycraft type rebuild is a no-brainer. You
do it once, and they will likely last forever.


Not forever. Mine were done by Skycraft in 1986, and again in 2005. (I guess
he marks them)

Does anyone have a pirep on the new owners? I hear he sold it and the new
operation is in NY. It was in a T-hangar in Hampton, NH