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#11
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message et... "Peter Dohm" wrote in message news "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message ... Not IMHO a bad idea really. When I was training and flew to controlled airspace for XC flights it was suggested that I mention I was a student and they did seem to slow things down a little. I can see how a uniform way of doing this might be helpful both in controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Example, "Bumfigle Tower, Cessna Student 1234A, ...." From AVWeb Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix so air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience and knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash on July 19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15 hours and was on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at Southend Airport, a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to pattern height so an overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed he did not reconfigure the aircraft and apply enough power for the unorthodox go-around and the Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a short time later. The four-person investigation team concluded pilot Sam Cross was put "in a situation for which his training and experience had not prepared him" after being "instructed to carry out an unfamiliar and nonstandard manoeuvre," the AAIB report said. Adding to the mix was the fact that Cross was returning to the field after just eight minutes in the air because haze was reducing visibility. His instructor was watching from the ground as the order to deviate from the runway heading was complied with and he noted the nose-up attitude of the Cessna before it stalled and spiralled into a park. Investigators determined the flaps were at 20 degrees, the carb heat was on and the engine was turning at 900 rpm at the time of the crash. Cross was the youngest pilot ever to be killed in a plane crash in Britain. In may very well be a good idea and, as several contributors have pointed out, it is commonly done by both civil and military flight schools. However, in my none too humble opinion, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the cited accident--in which the student pilot's status was presumably well known. And, of course, it is phrased as though someone would like to see it become a regulation. (rant temporarily witheld) Well, that wasn't a very useful post, was it? What I meant to say was that "judgement" training should start early. Starting out, I added "student pilot" to my call sign. Once I stopped doing that, I can remember a time when I responded to an odd request with "Unable, student pilot." -- ------------------------------- Travis Lake N3094P PWK |
#12
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:23:16 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote: Not IMHO a bad idea really. When I was training and flew to controlled airspace for XC flights it was suggested that I mention I was a student and they did seem to slow things down a little. I can see how a uniform way of doing this might be helpful both in controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Example, "Bumfigle Tower, Cessna Student 1234A, ...." From AVWeb Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix so air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience and knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash on July 19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15 hours and was on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at Southend Airport, a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to pattern height so an overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed he did not reconfigure the aircraft and apply enough power for the unorthodox go-around and the Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a short time later. The four-person investigation team concluded pilot Sam Cross was put "in a situation for which his training and experience had not prepared him" after being "instructed to carry out an unfamiliar and nonstandard manoeuvre," the AAIB report said. Adding to the mix was the fact that Cross was returning to the field after just eight minutes in the air because haze was reducing visibility. His instructor was watching from the ground as the order to deviate from the runway heading was complied with and he noted the nose-up attitude of the Cessna before it stalled and spiralled into a park. Investigators determined the flaps were at 20 degrees, the carb heat was on and the engine was turning at 900 rpm at the time of the crash. Cross was the youngest pilot ever to be killed in a plane crash in Britain. I hope that someone takes the air traffic controller and the ****** in the meridian out and beats them senseless. the kid had the right of way and neither had the right to do what they did. it is called a go around folks and every meridian can do one. the pair of ******* just killed a pilot through combined negligence. dont let them get away with it. Stealth Pilot |
#13
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
Gig 601XL Builder writes:
Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix so air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience and knowledge. Will this also apply to inexperienced air traffic controllers? Student pilots are advised to tell ATC that they are student pilots; I don't see any reason why they must be "flagged." They are not trying to keep it a secret. |
#14
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
... I hope that someone takes the air traffic controller and the ****** in the meridian out and beats them senseless. I looked at this thread very early in the morning (before my coffee) and read: "Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flogged" Maybe the controller should be flogged. |
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
"Andy Hawkins" wrote in message ... Hi, I'm not too sure of this. If you read the full report, I think it's said that there was a change of ATC personnel between the time the student took off, and when he landed. I could be mis-remembering of course. Andy My point, which Judah phrased much better, was simply that "stuff happens" and it makes no sense to add more regulations and complexity every time an accident or incident indicates a possible gap in the rules--or to try to find or enact a crime that might fit every situation. All of us will die; but, if we expend less effort fretting about unusual causes, most of us would live more complete and enjoyable lives before our death. However, I did only scan the report on line, which never results in my best performance; so I have now printed it. I have a rather long gap in my schedule later today, and will read it in its entirety. Peter |
#16
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
What I meant to say was that "judgement" training should start early. Starting out, I added "student pilot" to my call sign. Once I stopped doing that, I can remember a time when I responded to an odd request with "Unable, student pilot." -- ------------------------------- Travis Lake N3094P PWK I think that all instructors attempt to do that, with varying results; and I agree that "unable" needs to be part of every pilot's vocabulary. It seems to be the real-life version of a "pause button" and excessive use indicates a need for additional training; but it can help in avoiding dangerous conditions. Peter |
#17
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
Stealth Pilot wrote:
I hope that someone takes the air traffic controller and the ****** in the meridian out and beats them senseless. the kid had the right of way and neither had the right to do what they did. it is called a go around folks and every meridian can do one. the pair of ******* just killed a pilot through combined negligence. dont let them get away with it. What exactly did the pilot of the Meridian do that has upset you so? John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) -- Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com |
#18
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
Hi,
In article , Peter wrote: My point, which Judah phrased much better, was simply that "stuff happens" and it makes no sense to add more regulations and complexity every time an accident or incident indicates a possible gap in the rules--or to try to find or enact a crime that might fit every situation. All of us will die; but, if we expend less effort fretting about unusual causes, most of us would live more complete and enjoyable lives before our death. While that's true, and adding more and more 'rules' isn't necessarily going to help, it can't be harmful to have a standardised method for inexperienced (not just student) pilots to identify themselves as such to ATC and other pilots. 'Heathrow Tower, Tyro G-ANDY base' isn't much more to say, and can convey this inexperience without too much extra effort. Military fields already have a mechanism for doing this (the 'Tyro' above is the military term). Extending this to civilian air traffic seems as good a way as any to me. I do agree though, there appear to have been a lot of small isolated factors in this accident that just all came together to make its consequences so bad. Andy |
#19
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
On Jul 17, 12:23 pm, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote: Not IMHO a bad idea really. When I was training and flew to controlled airspace for XC flights it was suggested that I mention I was a student and they did seem to slow things down a little. I can see how a uniform way of doing this might be helpful both in controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Example, "Bumfigle Tower, Cessna Student 1234A, ...." I had a side thought that is somewhat similar; I was watching/ listening to a recording of a mayday flight in (I believe) Britain, and the communications initiated from the pilot of the emergency craft prefixed his callsign with Mayday (e.g. Mayday Company 1234 is turning to heading 120 requesting runway 5R). I don't remember the exact details, but it was a bird strike on takeoff (i think the vid is on youtube). Anyway, I bring it up because of a previous discussion regarding the ATC handling of the American flight that ended up "accepting" a runway assignment that was somewhat inappropriate for their situation. From what I remember, some of the ATC transcripts involved an initial landline comm between approach and tower, with approach requesting the tailwind runway, but not telling tower that the pilot had declared an emergency. If the AA pilot was prefixing his callsign with the "mayday" tag, the first communcation between him and twr would have alerted the tower controller that the runway request was not "ordinary". (of course, IIRC, the initial controller told the pilot to squawk 7700 as well which would be yet another reminder). It seems (to me at least) that it could also help with the following: New pilots on frequency would be immediately aware of the emergency situation being handled on the frequency, Controllers would be reminded of the priority of the flight's handling, On initial callup on a handoff by the emergency craft, the new controller would be immediately reminded of the mayday sit. |
#20
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Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
"Andy Hawkins" wrote in message ... Hi, In article , Peter wrote: My point, which Judah phrased much better, was simply that "stuff happens" and it makes no sense to add more regulations and complexity every time an accident or incident indicates a possible gap in the rules--or to try to find or enact a crime that might fit every situation. All of us will die; but, if we expend less effort fretting about unusual causes, most of us would live more complete and enjoyable lives before our death. While that's true, and adding more and more 'rules' isn't necessarily going to help, it can't be harmful to have a standardised method for inexperienced (not just student) pilots to identify themselves as such to ATC and other pilots. 'Heathrow Tower, Tyro G-ANDY base' isn't much more to say, and can convey this inexperience without too much extra effort. Military fields already have a mechanism for doing this (the 'Tyro' above is the military term). Extending this to civilian air traffic seems as good a way as any to me. I do agree though, there appear to have been a lot of small isolated factors in this accident that just all came together to make its consequences so bad. How about squawking "1201" for student pilots? |
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