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Tow Plane Upsets......



 
 
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  #81  
Old May 22nd 17, 07:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Tow Plane Upsets......

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 8:43:12 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
I have been towing for about two and a half years and have logged over
6,500 tows. Having recently experienced a couple of rather violent
glider kiting incidents, one at about 300 feet AGL I decided to
investigate the experiences of other tow pilots in these circumstances.
I have spent several hours reading posts about gliders kiting and
upsetting the tow plane, many of the posts deal with creating an
automatic release that will recognize the actions of the glider and
release without input from the tow pilot. Nice idea, some really
creative approaches and the bottom line is anything can be done if you
have enough money and can get the FAA to buy into it and give
approval.

Lots of opinions and ideas as to why these things happen. Bottom line
is that they do happen, they have resulted in loss of tow pilot lives
and the causes are well known.

Of my two most recent experiences one was with a 67 year old licensed
private pilot, glider only, no other pilot ratings who at 2000 feet
tried to release, “slipped back in the seat pulling back on the stick
and going vertical.” I took a stab at the release to no avail, the
pressure was too great and I soon found myself at about 75 degrees nose
down at full power. The natural instinct at this point is to pull back
the power and try again to release. He managed to release before I
could try for a second time and I recovered. If this has to happen to
you, 2000 feet is a good place to be. My understanding is that this was
his first tow in more than a year. Something to think about.

My second experience in the same week was with a 15 year old student on
her 3rd solo pattern tow. At about 250 to 300 feet I started a turn
from the downwind drift to the right. I felt a tug on my tail pulling
my nose to the left. After a few seconds I tried again to turn to the
right knowing that she was behind me to the right. Could not see her,
no mirror on the right. (much easier if she was a little to the left)
The second time the pull of my tail to the right and nose to the left
was a bit more violent…..followed by a very hard tug of my tail UP and
to the right. We could not have been much more than 300 feet when I
found myself nose down and trying to release….again the pressure was too
much to overcome and I needed to retard the throttle. Before I could
make a second attempt at release I heard a loud BANG as the rope broke,
I regained control and recovered just above the trees. (glad that I had
made a pit stop before I started towing). She made it back to the field
and didn’t seem at all concerned……I shall withhold my comments at this
point.

I had to straighten out the Schweizer hook which was off to the right
about 30 degrees before I could make the last 8 tows of the day.

While I have concerns with both of these pilots my major concern is that
the difficulty of actuating the release when the glider kites is well
documented. To make matters worse, the release in the tug I was flying,
although a bit more manually accessible than the other two I fly
requires that the pilot pull it back and push down to fully actuate the
release. Not an easy thing to do under the circumstances. The other
two release handles are down on the floor to the left and for someone of
my height, sitting on a cushion and trying to grab the release is very
difficult. It would seem to me that an easy fix would be to simply make
a longer handle curved up so one could both see and feel for it in an
emergency. A longer handle would also provide a bit more mechanical
advantage although having read many of the posts I am not sure this
would overcome the pressure on the Schweizer hook. Of course I hear all
the noise about needing to apply for a 337 and get FAA approval….next I
will need approval to put a cushion on the seat or to have an inspection
after washing the airplane.

So, the fixes appear to be going to a Tost hook or inverting the
Schweizer hook which I understand can be done with an available STC.
In my case I would also like to see a more accessible release
handle…would (or should) an STC be required for this? This would be
the short term fix I would like to see. If the handle was made from the
same stock as the current device, just a foot or so longer it would seem
that this should be able to be done without a long drawn out approval
process.

I love flying, enjoy the gliderport environment and people but I am NOT
willing to give up my life. When the glider kites things happen very
fast. Unless your hand is on the handle (not feasible in my
circumstances) you will not be able to release before the pressure gets
too great. If it happens much lower than I experience it will be lights
out. So remember my glider pilot friends….fly well….the life you save
might be your tow pilot.

Walt Connelly




--
Walt Connelly


Those Schweitzer hooks should have been replaced long ago. I just last week installed a Tost hook on my Pawnee and I am certainly glad that I did. Tow pilot safety is a must, no substitute for doing all possible to protect the tow pilot and glider pilot as well.
  #82  
Old May 22nd 17, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,099
Default Tow Plane Upsets......

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 12:59:04 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 8:43:12 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
I have been towing for about two and a half years and have logged over
6,500 tows. Having recently experienced a couple of rather violent
glider kiting incidents, one at about 300 feet AGL I decided to
investigate the experiences of other tow pilots in these circumstances.
I have spent several hours reading posts about gliders kiting and
upsetting the tow plane, many of the posts deal with creating an
automatic release that will recognize the actions of the glider and
release without input from the tow pilot. Nice idea, some really
creative approaches and the bottom line is anything can be done if you
have enough money and can get the FAA to buy into it and give
approval.

Lots of opinions and ideas as to why these things happen. Bottom line
is that they do happen, they have resulted in loss of tow pilot lives
and the causes are well known.

Of my two most recent experiences one was with a 67 year old licensed
private pilot, glider only, no other pilot ratings who at 2000 feet
tried to release, “slipped back in the seat pulling back on the stick
and going vertical.” I took a stab at the release to no avail, the
pressure was too great and I soon found myself at about 75 degrees nose
down at full power. The natural instinct at this point is to pull back
the power and try again to release. He managed to release before I
could try for a second time and I recovered. If this has to happen to
you, 2000 feet is a good place to be. My understanding is that this was
his first tow in more than a year. Something to think about.

My second experience in the same week was with a 15 year old student on
her 3rd solo pattern tow. At about 250 to 300 feet I started a turn
from the downwind drift to the right. I felt a tug on my tail pulling
my nose to the left. After a few seconds I tried again to turn to the
right knowing that she was behind me to the right. Could not see her,
no mirror on the right. (much easier if she was a little to the left)
The second time the pull of my tail to the right and nose to the left
was a bit more violent…..followed by a very hard tug of my tail UP and
to the right. We could not have been much more than 300 feet when I
found myself nose down and trying to release….again the pressure was too
much to overcome and I needed to retard the throttle. Before I could
make a second attempt at release I heard a loud BANG as the rope broke,
I regained control and recovered just above the trees. (glad that I had
made a pit stop before I started towing). She made it back to the field
and didn’t seem at all concerned……I shall withhold my comments at this
point.

I had to straighten out the Schweizer hook which was off to the right
about 30 degrees before I could make the last 8 tows of the day.

While I have concerns with both of these pilots my major concern is that
the difficulty of actuating the release when the glider kites is well
documented. To make matters worse, the release in the tug I was flying,
although a bit more manually accessible than the other two I fly
requires that the pilot pull it back and push down to fully actuate the
release. Not an easy thing to do under the circumstances. The other
two release handles are down on the floor to the left and for someone of
my height, sitting on a cushion and trying to grab the release is very
difficult. It would seem to me that an easy fix would be to simply make
a longer handle curved up so one could both see and feel for it in an
emergency. A longer handle would also provide a bit more mechanical
advantage although having read many of the posts I am not sure this
would overcome the pressure on the Schweizer hook. Of course I hear all
the noise about needing to apply for a 337 and get FAA approval….next I
will need approval to put a cushion on the seat or to have an inspection
after washing the airplane.

So, the fixes appear to be going to a Tost hook or inverting the
Schweizer hook which I understand can be done with an available STC.
In my case I would also like to see a more accessible release
handle…would (or should) an STC be required for this? This would be
the short term fix I would like to see. If the handle was made from the
same stock as the current device, just a foot or so longer it would seem
that this should be able to be done without a long drawn out approval
process.

I love flying, enjoy the gliderport environment and people but I am NOT
willing to give up my life. When the glider kites things happen very
fast. Unless your hand is on the handle (not feasible in my
circumstances) you will not be able to release before the pressure gets
too great. If it happens much lower than I experience it will be lights
out. So remember my glider pilot friends….fly well….the life you save
might be your tow pilot.

Walt Connelly




--
Walt Connelly


Those Schweitzer hooks should have been replaced long ago. I just last week installed a Tost hook on my Pawnee and I am certainly glad that I did. Tow pilot safety is a must, no substitute for doing all possible to protect the tow pilot and glider pilot as well.


True, but not all FSDO's have cooperated. A few years ago, a 260 Pawnee with a restricted A/W here in Colorado had to go to Wichita for 337 approval to install a TOST hook.
  #83  
Old May 22nd 17, 10:51 PM
Walt Connelly Walt Connelly is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by View Post
On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 8:43:12 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
I have been towing for about two and a half years and have logged over
6,500 tows. Having recently experienced a couple of rather violent
glider kiting incidents, one at about 300 feet AGL I decided to
investigate the experiences of other tow pilots in these circumstances.
I have spent several hours reading posts about gliders kiting and
upsetting the tow plane, many of the posts deal with creating an
automatic release that will recognize the actions of the glider and
release without input from the tow pilot. Nice idea, some really
creative approaches and the bottom line is anything can be done if you
have enough money and can get the FAA to buy into it and give
approval.

Lots of opinions and ideas as to why these things happen. Bottom line
is that they do happen, they have resulted in loss of tow pilot lives
and the causes are well known.

Of my two most recent experiences one was with a 67 year old licensed
private pilot, glider only, no other pilot ratings who at 2000 feet
tried to release, “slipped back in the seat pulling back on the stick
and going vertical.” I took a stab at the release to no avail, the
pressure was too great and I soon found myself at about 75 degrees nose
down at full power. The natural instinct at this point is to pull back
the power and try again to release. He managed to release before I
could try for a second time and I recovered. If this has to happen to
you, 2000 feet is a good place to be. My understanding is that this was
his first tow in more than a year. Something to think about.

My second experience in the same week was with a 15 year old student on
her 3rd solo pattern tow. At about 250 to 300 feet I started a turn
from the downwind drift to the right. I felt a tug on my tail pulling
my nose to the left. After a few seconds I tried again to turn to the
right knowing that she was behind me to the right. Could not see her,
no mirror on the right. (much easier if she was a little to the left)
The second time the pull of my tail to the right and nose to the left
was a bit more violent…..followed by a very hard tug of my tail UP and
to the right. We could not have been much more than 300 feet when I
found myself nose down and trying to release….again the pressure was too
much to overcome and I needed to retard the throttle. Before I could
make a second attempt at release I heard a loud BANG as the rope broke,
I regained control and recovered just above the trees. (glad that I had
made a pit stop before I started towing). She made it back to the field
and didn’t seem at all concerned……I shall withhold my comments at this
point.

I had to straighten out the Schweizer hook which was off to the right
about 30 degrees before I could make the last 8 tows of the day.

While I have concerns with both of these pilots my major concern is that
the difficulty of actuating the release when the glider kites is well
documented. To make matters worse, the release in the tug I was flying,
although a bit more manually accessible than the other two I fly
requires that the pilot pull it back and push down to fully actuate the
release. Not an easy thing to do under the circumstances. The other
two release handles are down on the floor to the left and for someone of
my height, sitting on a cushion and trying to grab the release is very
difficult. It would seem to me that an easy fix would be to simply make
a longer handle curved up so one could both see and feel for it in an
emergency. A longer handle would also provide a bit more mechanical
advantage although having read many of the posts I am not sure this
would overcome the pressure on the Schweizer hook. Of course I hear all
the noise about needing to apply for a 337 and get FAA approval….next I
will need approval to put a cushion on the seat or to have an inspection
after washing the airplane.

So, the fixes appear to be going to a Tost hook or inverting the
Schweizer hook which I understand can be done with an available STC.
In my case I would also like to see a more accessible release
handle…would (or should) an STC be required for this? This would be
the short term fix I would like to see. If the handle was made from the
same stock as the current device, just a foot or so longer it would seem
that this should be able to be done without a long drawn out approval
process.

I love flying, enjoy the gliderport environment and people but I am NOT
willing to give up my life. When the glider kites things happen very
fast. Unless your hand is on the handle (not feasible in my
circumstances) you will not be able to release before the pressure gets
too great. If it happens much lower than I experience it will be lights
out. So remember my glider pilot friends….fly well….the life you save
might be your tow pilot.

Walt Connelly




--
Walt Connelly


Those Schweitzer hooks should have been replaced long ago. I just last week installed a Tost hook on my Pawnee and I am certainly glad that I did. Tow pilot safety is a must, no substitute for doing all possible to protect the tow pilot and glider pilot as well.
I totally agree. Unfortunately too many tow planes out there continue to operate with a system that might cause the death of a tow pilot. Until a low kiting incident happens to a tow pilot, he or she will not understand the speed at which it occurs or what it feels like to try to operate the release with no response.

Walt Connelly
  #84  
Old May 22nd 17, 10:54 PM
Walt Connelly Walt Connelly is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Whiteley View Post
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 12:59:04 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 8:43:12 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
I have been towing for about two and a half years and have logged over
6,500 tows. Having recently experienced a couple of rather violent
glider kiting incidents, one at about 300 feet AGL I decided to
investigate the experiences of other tow pilots in these circumstances.
I have spent several hours reading posts about gliders kiting and
upsetting the tow plane, many of the posts deal with creating an
automatic release that will recognize the actions of the glider and
release without input from the tow pilot. Nice idea, some really
creative approaches and the bottom line is anything can be done if you
have enough money and can get the FAA to buy into it and give
approval.

Lots of opinions and ideas as to why these things happen. Bottom line
is that they do happen, they have resulted in loss of tow pilot lives
and the causes are well known.

Of my two most recent experiences one was with a 67 year old licensed
private pilot, glider only, no other pilot ratings who at 2000 feet
tried to release, “slipped back in the seat pulling back on the stick
and going vertical.” I took a stab at the release to no avail, the
pressure was too great and I soon found myself at about 75 degrees nose
down at full power. The natural instinct at this point is to pull back
the power and try again to release. He managed to release before I
could try for a second time and I recovered. If this has to happen to
you, 2000 feet is a good place to be. My understanding is that this was
his first tow in more than a year. Something to think about.

My second experience in the same week was with a 15 year old student on
her 3rd solo pattern tow. At about 250 to 300 feet I started a turn
from the downwind drift to the right. I felt a tug on my tail pulling
my nose to the left. After a few seconds I tried again to turn to the
right knowing that she was behind me to the right. Could not see her,
no mirror on the right. (much easier if she was a little to the left)
The second time the pull of my tail to the right and nose to the left
was a bit more violent…..followed by a very hard tug of my tail UP and
to the right. We could not have been much more than 300 feet when I
found myself nose down and trying to release….again the pressure was too
much to overcome and I needed to retard the throttle. Before I could
make a second attempt at release I heard a loud BANG as the rope broke,
I regained control and recovered just above the trees. (glad that I had
made a pit stop before I started towing). She made it back to the field
and didn’t seem at all concerned……I shall withhold my comments at this
point.

I had to straighten out the Schweizer hook which was off to the right
about 30 degrees before I could make the last 8 tows of the day.

While I have concerns with both of these pilots my major concern is that
the difficulty of actuating the release when the glider kites is well
documented. To make matters worse, the release in the tug I was flying,
although a bit more manually accessible than the other two I fly
requires that the pilot pull it back and push down to fully actuate the
release. Not an easy thing to do under the circumstances. The other
two release handles are down on the floor to the left and for someone of
my height, sitting on a cushion and trying to grab the release is very
difficult. It would seem to me that an easy fix would be to simply make
a longer handle curved up so one could both see and feel for it in an
emergency. A longer handle would also provide a bit more mechanical
advantage although having read many of the posts I am not sure this
would overcome the pressure on the Schweizer hook. Of course I hear all
the noise about needing to apply for a 337 and get FAA approval….next I
will need approval to put a cushion on the seat or to have an inspection
after washing the airplane.

So, the fixes appear to be going to a Tost hook or inverting the
Schweizer hook which I understand can be done with an available STC.
In my case I would also like to see a more accessible release
handle…would (or should) an STC be required for this? This would be
the short term fix I would like to see. If the handle was made from the
same stock as the current device, just a foot or so longer it would seem
that this should be able to be done without a long drawn out approval
process.

I love flying, enjoy the gliderport environment and people but I am NOT
willing to give up my life. When the glider kites things happen very
fast. Unless your hand is on the handle (not feasible in my
circumstances) you will not be able to release before the pressure gets
too great. If it happens much lower than I experience it will be lights
out. So remember my glider pilot friends….fly well….the life you save
might be your tow pilot.

Walt Connelly




--
Walt Connelly


Those Schweitzer hooks should have been replaced long ago. I just last week installed a Tost hook on my Pawnee and I am certainly glad that I did. Tow pilot safety is a must, no substitute for doing all possible to protect the tow pilot and glider pilot as well.


True, but not all FSDO's have cooperated. A few years ago, a 260 Pawnee with a restricted A/W here in Colorado had to go to Wichita for 337 approval to install a TOST hook.
Please educate me on this. Do I understand that a FSDO can deny an operator a change from a Schweizer to Tost release?

Walt Connelly
 




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