The rudder waggle signal does not work

On Jul 22, 5:55*am, Pat Russell wrote:
The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

-Pat

Worked for me, shortly after taking off from Crystal several years ago
the tow plane waggled his rudder, looking at the wings I noticed
spoilers open. No radios there but I agree that this is the 21st
century and radio communication is cheap now. Now if he had of rocked
his wings that means get off or I'm going to dump you.

On Jul 22, 8:55*am, Pat Russell wrote:
The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

-Pat

maybe it doesn't work because it's never taught, except out of a book.

I've never seen this practiced anywhere, ever. I suggest CFIG
instruct student to open spoilers on tow at safe altitude (smoothly,
please), tow pilot (briefed ahead of time) gives the rudder wag when
he notices. We practice wave offs from time to time, we can do this
too.

Radios are good. Reliance on the radio is foolish. They are by far
the most unreliable pieces of equipment we use.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jul 22, 9:01*am, RL wrote:
What Gary said… Flying a glider without direct tow plane radio
communication is sheer foolishness. With today’s radio/battery
technology, or at minimum a handheld w/ PTT, there is zero excuse for
not having every glider and tow plane equipped with a radio. *We would
never allow a glider to launch from our airport without a working
radio and contact with the towplane.

In the case of open dive brakes, the often misinterpreted and
ambiguous rudder waggle becomes replaced by a simple radio call and
the problem goes away with no guessing on either end of the string.
There is little chance the FAA will address the issue, so here’s a
controversial thought… maybe we should encourage insurance companies
to “adjust” their rates based on having a radio on board… that will
get the anti-progress crowd fired up!

Bob

I don't disagree with RL in any way. However, AM simplex aviation
radio is an anachronism dating from before WW2 which has real
limitations. Every procedure in aviation has backups for radio
communication failure including tower light signals and IFR
communications failures among others. We're no different.

For aviation radio to work it must be:
1. Turned on. (Battery charged)
2. Set to right frequency.
3. Squelch set correctly.
4. Volume set correctly.
5. Selected frequency free of interfering radio traffic - including
that from the station you're trying to contact.

There's a lot of room for radio communications to fail in a critical
moment. Even with radios, we still need the rudder wag signal as a
backup - and pilots have to know it. If you don't, you're going to
bust your next checkride or Flight Review.

On Jul 22, 9:28*am, T8 wrote:
On Jul 22, 8:55*am, Pat Russell wrote:

The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

-Pat

maybe it doesn't work because it's never taught, except out of a book.

I've never seen this practiced anywhere, ever. *I suggest CFIG
instruct student to open spoilers on tow at safe altitude (smoothly,
please), tow pilot (briefed ahead of time) gives the rudder wag when
he notices. *We practice wave offs from time to time, we can do this
too.

Radios are good. *Reliance on the radio is foolish. *They are by far
the most unreliable pieces of equipment we use.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Repeating what I wrote in the other thread:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice, it is
the human nature of confusion and tunnel vision under stress! Imagine
you are on tow and barely climbing (since your spoilers are out),
your first thought is that something is wrong with the tow plane, and
once you see the tow pilot waggle the rudder (which may also cause the
wings to rock a little), I bet over 90% of pilots will release, even
if they just practiced this manuver a week ago. There are many
examples confirming this, luckily not all of them resulted in
accidents.
Bottom line: Use radios! If this doesn't work, do not waggle rudders
until at safe altitude, unless the tow plane can not climb at all.

Ramy

I think the standard and enforced use of signals is the best way all
around. Too many times when things get busy, radios or mikes are
dropped, misplaced, tuned off frequency or you name it.
Too many clubs start introducing their own idiosyncratic signals.
Standardize them.
But what do I know? MSL seems logical to me, but some insist on AGL.
Sometimes when reading these threads, especially if one is an
infrequent follower, one comes away with the impression, "I'm glad I'm
not flying with him" followed very quickly with "I'm glad he's not
flying with me". Lots of emotion out there.
Leave the FAA out of things.

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

On Jul 22, 9:53*am, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 22, 9:01*am, RL wrote:









What Gary said… Flying a glider without direct tow plane radio
communication is sheer foolishness. With today’s radio/battery
technology, or at minimum a handheld w/ PTT, there is zero excuse for
not having every glider and tow plane equipped with a radio. *We would
never allow a glider to launch from our airport without a working
radio and contact with the towplane.

In the case of open dive brakes, the often misinterpreted and
ambiguous rudder waggle becomes replaced by a simple radio call and
the problem goes away with no guessing on either end of the string.
There is little chance the FAA will address the issue, so here’s a
controversial thought… maybe we should encourage insurance companies
to “adjust” their rates based on having a radio on board… that will
get the anti-progress crowd fired up!

Bob

I don't disagree with RL in any way. *However, AM simplex aviation
radio is an anachronism dating from before WW2 which has real
limitations. *Every procedure in aviation has backups for radio
communication failure including tower light signals and IFR
communications failures among others. *We're no different.

For aviation radio to work it must be:
1. Turned on. (Battery charged)
2. Set to right frequency.
3. Squelch set correctly.
4. Volume set correctly.
5. Selected frequency free of interfering radio traffic - including
that from the station you're trying to contact.

There's a lot of room for radio communications to fail in a critical
moment. *Even with radios, we still need the rudder wag signal as a
backup - and pilots have to know it. *If you don't, you're going to
bust your next checkride or Flight Review.

There is no excuse for gliders or tow planes not to have radios but
that will never be infallible and here is also no excuse for tow and
glider pilots not to be proficient with the signals. I'd hope the
radio is always the tool of first use however.

But to emphasize the radio does have limitations I'll add these issues
-

o Properly installed with a good well positioned speaker or use of a
headset.

o Environmental noise appropriately managed (e.g. noisy side vents
that an interfere with listening). (Bumper's quiet vent kit helps if
you want to keep the vent scoop open on tow).

o Audio conflicts in the cockpit e.g. passenger/co-pilot/instructor
speaking at the same time.

o Use of confusing speech/phraseology, so even if the message is heard
it is not quickly understood. Whats are tow pilots expected to say on
the radio if spoilers appear deployed where you fly?

---

I'd like to always see careful use even of the radio e.g. tow to a
safe location/altitude if at all possible if spoilers are deployed -
before even using the radio which in itself could cause confusion and
a unintended release. And when made make it a very clear radio call
with the glider call-sign and "check spoilers" If that fails then
rudder waggle.

Darryl

On Jul 22, 8:55*am, Pat Russell wrote:
The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

-Pat

Seems pretty clear to me, have never gotten them confused.

But then maybe it's because I'm a diver. The "problem" hand signal
resembles the rocking of wings, not the wagging of the tail.

Did they not have radios? *Over the years I have collected many
stories of accidents that almost happened and at some point during the
story I have to add, "Oh, and back then we did not have radios."
Every glider should have a radio and a PPT on the stick!

Boggs

A couple of gliders I've flown were so noisy I couldn't even
understand my handheld. I turned it off, it was functioning only as a
noisy distraction.