FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?

There is a difference between (1) serving as pilot in command, (2) acting as
pilot in command, and (3) logging pilot in command. The last two apply to
part 91 operations. Logging pic and acting as pic are not related.

Simon
AWP-FSDO-SDL

There is a difference between (1) serving as pilot in command, (2) acting as
pilot in command, and (3) logging pilot in command.


Ok, what's the difference between (1) and (2)?

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Acting as pilot in command is the situation where the pilot is (in his or
her mind) the pilot in command. Logging is independant of acting, you are
correct, in the USA there is a tenuous relationship betwee the two. Serving
as pilot in command does not apply to part 91 operations, as I mentioned in
the relevant post. It is a concept used in air carrier regulatory parts, and
may include time serving as (rated but not yet fully qualified) pic (as in
incomplete IOE) when someone else, such as an IOE check airman, is THE pic,
and this time applies to things like high minimums. That is a very short
summary and does not include the exceptions, wherefores, herinafters,
limited to's, and so on. I include it because it provides a more complete
picture of the concepts discussed.

Fly safe

Simon
AWP-FSDO-SDL

"Simon" wrote

Acting as pilot in command is the situation where the pilot is
(in his or her mind) the pilot in command. Logging is
independant of acting, you are correct, in the USA there is a
tenuous relationship betwee the two. Serving as pilot in command
does not apply to part 91 operations, as I mentioned in the
relevant post. It is a concept used in air carrier regulatory
parts, and may include time serving as (rated but not yet fully
qualified) pic (as in incomplete IOE) when someone else, such as
an IOE check airman, is THE pic, and this time applies to things
like high minimums. That is a very short summary and does not
include the exceptions, wherefores, herinafters, limited to's,
and so on. I include it because it provides a more complete
picture of the concepts discussed.

I think that you still have your words mixed-up. Quoting from
FAR 121 concerning Operating Experience:

"Section 121.434: Operating experience, operating cycles, and
consolidation of knowledge and skills.
(a) No certificate holder may use a person nor may any person
serve as a required crewmember of an airplane unless the person
has satisfactorily completed, on that type airplane and in that
crewmember position, the operating experience, operating cycles, and
the line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and
skills, required by this section, except as follows:

(1) Crewmembers other than pilots in command may serve as provided
herein for the purpose of meeting the requirements of this section.

(2) Pilots who are meeting the pilot in command requirements MAY
SERVE AS SECOND-IN-COMMAND.

(c) Pilot crewmembers must acquire operating experience and operating
cycles as follows:

(1) A pilot in command must --

(i) PERFORM THE DUTIES of a pilot in command under the supervision of
a check pilot;"

No instance of "acting as pilot-in-command" was found in Part 121.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)

I agree. Serving is a 121 concept. Acting is a part 91 concept which applies
to 121 also. The 61.51 provision for logging pic while acting as pic for
those operations requiring the use of an ATP is one such example where
acting as pic applies to 121. My point was not that acting applied to 121
but that serving was a third category of pic.

"Simon" wrote in message
...
I agree.

Do you?

[...] My point was not that acting applied to 121
but that serving was a third category of pic.

Hmmm...it seems that you don't agree after all. "Serving" is not a category
of PIC at all.

Pete

My impression from this discussion is that "serving" as PIC (while not "acting"
as PIC) is sort of like being able to log PIC time when you are solo and not
yet a private pilot. You're not rated, but you are doing the things you would
be doing if you were.

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

(Teacherjh) wrote

My impression from this discussion is that "serving" as PIC
(while not "acting" as PIC) is sort of like being able to log
PIC time when you are solo and not yet a private pilot. You're
not rated, but you are doing the things you would be doing if
you were.

The predominate expression in Part 61 is "to act as pilot-in-
command", however occasionally, the phrase "to serve as pilot-
in-command" is used interchangeably to mean the same thing.

Examples........

(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an
aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for
more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made
at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding
90 days, and --
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, to serve as
pilot in command of an aircraft that is type certificated for
more than one required pilot flight crewmember, a person must--


And then there are the examples during training and checking
where the regulations use the phrase "performing the duties of
a pilot-in-command" or "executing the duties of a pilot-in-
command" interchangably.

Example.......

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out
while executing the duties of pilot in command;


Bob Moore

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:04:54 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

"Simon" wrote in message
...
I agree.

Do you?

[...] My point was not that acting applied to 121
but that serving was a third category of pic.

Hmmm...it seems that you don't agree after all. "Serving" is not a category
of PIC at all.


To me only one thing matters...It only takes Airplane, Single Engine
Land for some one to fly as safety pilot with me in my high
performance/complex/retract. It's up to them how they log it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Pete

a good philosophy.
G3ROW WB7ULT