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#1
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WWII warplanes vs combat sim realism
Posted this on a thread but the guys were too busy flaming each other to
notice or give an intelligent answer. Trying again......... I am having a debate on the subject of whether planes like the BF109 and FW190 were really as unstable and prone to stalls and spins at the drop of a hat as modelled in the PC sim IL2 Sturmovik, Forgotten Battles. I am saying not and that the air war would never have been won if planes of that era could barely fly. Does anyone know of real stories/reports on this issue or maybe know some vintage pilots who flew them? I have already read of a Mustang pilot who says the sim feels about right if the 'stalls and spins' setting is turned off. The debate extended into 'blackouts and redouts'. In the sim, a hard pull on the stick and the screen goes black, very annoying and I believe unrealistic. How many G's could those WWII planes pull without tearing off the wings? Should 'blackouts and redouts' even be modelled in a WWII sim? What was the "real" story? (I'm not a pilot but I have flown a real plane. I know that PC sims are unrealistic so nobody has to tell me that........) I was fortunate enough to be able to afford to charter a Hawker Hunter out of Thunder City, Cape Town, South Africa, I was very at home on the stick and was immediately capable of basic flight manouvres, thanks to playing flight sims. It took only seconds to get over the initial tendency to make 'too big' movements. That's because I got a serious fright when I yanked on the stick, the Hunter is as agile as a cat!. The pilot only took over for the seriously rough aerobatics (and of course take off and landing). So, unrealistic as they may be and although they will never make me a pilot, PC flight sims do teach you something. I blacked out at around 5 G's in the Hunter and the pilot reckons he has bult up a tolerance quite a bit hight than that (I'm glad, otherwise who would have been watching where we were going?!) |
#2
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wrote in message ... Posted this on a thread but the guys were too busy flaming each other to notice or give an intelligent answer. Trying again......... The debate extended into 'blackouts and redouts'. In the sim, a hard pull on the stick and the screen goes black, very annoying and I believe unrealistic. How many G's could those WWII planes pull without tearing off the wings? Should 'blackouts and redouts' even be modelled in a WWII sim? I think that blackouts probably do belong. I read in a book (it was a serious BoB analysis, if I can find the title I'll let you know) that when the RAF captured an Bf109 they found that the pilots could take more "G" in it without tunnel vision / blackout. The reason? The rudder pedals were mounted higher in relation to the rest of the body on the Bf109. Hence less blood rushing to the feet. A small detail, but that could be the one that decides the fight! Alas for the luftwaffe the Bf109 wings were not designed for guns etc so were not terrifically robust, the pilots were often more worried about the wings falling off than blacking out...... I blacked out at around 5 G's in the Hunter and the pilot reckons he has bult up a tolerance quite a bit hight than that (I'm glad, otherwise who would have been watching where we were going?!) OK, 3.5 G in a Glider is all I have managed to pull and then not for very long (for obvious reasons!). 5G in a Hunter, now envy is a really bad thing........ Must have been a great trip! Mark |
#3
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decides the fight! Alas for the luftwaffe the Bf109 wings were not designed
for guns etc so were not terrifically robust, the pilots were often more worried about the wings falling off than blacking out...... Incorrect. Having guns or not doesn't have anything to do with the strenght of the wings. 109s from A-E had wing weapons, again one of the K models was designed for wing weapons. The wings were also one single structure, which made it possible to make them very strong. "- Are the stories true, that the 109 had weak wings and would loose them easily? He has never heard of a 109 loosing its wings from his experience or others. The wings could withstand 12 g's and since most pilots could only handle at most 9 g's there was never a problem. He was never worried about loosing a wing in any form of combat." - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler. "The maximum speed not to be exceeded was 750kmh. Once I was flying above Helsinki as I received a report of Russkies in the South. There was a big Cumulus cloud on my way there but I decided to fly right through. I centered the controls and then something extraordinary happened. I must have involuntarily entered into half-roll and dive. The planes had individual handling characteristics; even though I held the turning indicator in the middle, the plane kept going faster and faster, I pulled the stick, yet the plane went into an ever steeper dive. In the same time she started rotating, and I came out of the cloud with less than one kilometer of altitude. I started pulling the stick, nothing happened, I checked the speed, it was about 850kmh. I tried to recover the plane but the stick was as if locked and nothing happened. I broke into a sweat of agony: now I am going into the sea and cannot help it. I pulled with both hands, groaning and by and by she started recovering, she recovered more, I pulled and pulled, but the surface of the sea approached, I thought I was going to crash. I kept pulling until I saw that I had survived. The distance between me and the sea may have been five meters. I pulled up and found myself on the coast of Estonia. If I in that situation had used the vertical trim the wings would have been broken off. A minimal trim movement has a strong effect on wings when the speed limit has been exceded. I had 100kmh overspeed! It was out of all limits. The Messerschmitt's wings were fastened with two bolts. When I saw the construction I had thought that they are strong enough but in this case I was thinking, when are they going to break - What about the phenomenon called "buffeting" or vibration, was there any? No, I did not encounter it even in the 850kmh speed." - Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. Given that 109s were routinely dived at 800-900 km/hour speeds that certainly shows that if there was some weaknesses in the plane, wings werent' them. jok |
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"Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote:
decides the fight! Alas for the luftwaffe the Bf109 wings were not designed for guns etc so were not terrifically robust, the pilots were often more worried about the wings falling off than blacking out...... Incorrect. Having guns or not doesn't have anything to do with the strenght of the wings. 109s from A-E had wing weapons, again one of the K models was designed for wing weapons. The wings were also one single structure, which made it possible to make them very strong. [...] Given that 109s were routinely dived at 800-900 km/hour speeds that certainly shows that if there was some weaknesses in the plane, wings werent' them. It's not so much the case the wings were actually breaking off the Bf 109 [E] during hard maneuvering, but a psychological belief that it could happen due to the very well known high wing loading. You've quoted some 109 pilots that indicated this belief wasn't a concern to them, but I've heard/read the story enough to think there must be some basis for it in fact. At least during the BoB period (109 Emil). SMH |
#5
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"Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote in message ... decides the fight! Alas for the luftwaffe the Bf109 wings were not designed for guns etc so were not terrifically robust, the pilots were often more worried about the wings falling off than blacking out...... Incorrect. Having guns or not doesn't have anything to do with the strenght of the wings. 109s from A-E had wing weapons, again one of the K models was designed for wing weapons. The wings were also one single structure, which made it possible to make them very strong. The wings do however have to be redesigned to carry the guns and the ammunition. This in turn places stress on the wing. The early 109s with wing mounted guns had to have an ammuntiion feed belt that went from the gun, to the wingtip and back round again! "- Are the stories true, that the 109 had weak wings and would loose them easily? snip I was quoting Len Dieghtons book "Fighter": The Messerschmitts weak wings were providing it's pilots with a new problem. The Spitfire pilots had discovered how to make use of the superior strength of the spitfire wings. Faster in a dive, the Messerschmitts were being overtaken because they pulled out in a shallow curve, nervous that they might rip their wings off. A little later: (this) gave rise to the widely held belief that the Bf 109 could not turn as tightly as the Spitfire. In theory it's turn was tighter, but few pilots were prepared to test this to it's limit. The Spitfire wing probably was a little stronger as it's main spar is effectively a leaf spring, capable of taking some stress and recovering. Part of the Bf 109s reputation may also come however from it's very narrow undercarraige, and the amount of taxi and landing accidents that resulted. Certainly the Fw 190 resolved this issue with a very wide undercarraige! Mark |
#6
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About a year and a half ago I finished up most of a digital remastering of a
narration of combat footage by a friend and P-47 pilot of the 78th who few 105 missions out of Duxford. I had heard that the physics model in the Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator for WWII was excellent and I used it to get some gun and engine sounds. For fun I added a gun film placard with "Wrongway Springer" at the end of the combat sequences and a section where I use the simulator and "attacked" a 109 from the rear. There is some good maneuvering and use of WEP to avoid stalls, fragments flying by, etc before the 109 goes down. I suppresed the color to make it look like the other footage. The very experienced pilot just said he didn't remember that sequence and where did I find film with a view from the cockpit and showing the instruments and with sound? I explained and he thought the realism was amazing. I'm still trying to get a good sound recording of engine noise from inside a maneuvering P-47. I think it is unlikey I will find a modern recording of gun sound! -- Charlie Springer |
#7
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I'm still trying to get a good sound recording of engine noise from inside a
maneuvering P-47. I might be able to help in this department. VL |
#8
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Subject: WWII warplanes vs combat sim realism
From: (MLenoch) Date: 11/20/03 10:56 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I'm still trying to get a good sound recording of engine noise from inside a maneuvering P-47. I might be able to help in this department. VL .. I've got a sound effect on my website of an R-2800 winding up. That's the same engine that was on the P-47. You might want to contact Bob McKellar and see if he will let you use it. If that is a problem I think I may have some R-2800 sound effects around somewhere. Nothing sounds quiet like an R-2800. (grin) Regards, Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#9
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Thanks for that Mark. Maybe blackouts should be in the game, but then the
problem lies, not with the aircraft flight models but with the modelling of the pilots G-force tolerence. Yeah, my Hunter seat time was the most intense hour of my life, very extreme! "Mark Irvine" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Posted this on a thread but the guys were too busy flaming each other to notice or give an intelligent answer. Trying again......... The debate extended into 'blackouts and redouts'. In the sim, a hard pull on the stick and the screen goes black, very annoying and I believe unrealistic. How many G's could those WWII planes pull without tearing off the wings? Should 'blackouts and redouts' even be modelled in a WWII sim? I think that blackouts probably do belong. I read in a book (it was a serious BoB analysis, if I can find the title I'll let you know) that when the RAF captured an Bf109 they found that the pilots could take more "G" in it without tunnel vision / blackout. The reason? The rudder pedals were mounted higher in relation to the rest of the body on the Bf109. Hence less blood rushing to the feet. A small detail, but that could be the one that decides the fight! Alas for the luftwaffe the Bf109 wings were not designed for guns etc so were not terrifically robust, the pilots were often more worried about the wings falling off than blacking out...... I blacked out at around 5 G's in the Hunter and the pilot reckons he has bult up a tolerance quite a bit hight than that (I'm glad, otherwise who would have been watching where we were going?!) OK, 3.5 G in a Glider is all I have managed to pull and then not for very long (for obvious reasons!). 5G in a Hunter, now envy is a really bad thing........ Must have been a great trip! Mark |
#10
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"Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote in message ... decides the fight! Alas for the luftwaffe the Bf109 wings were not designed for guns etc so were not terrifically robust, the pilots were often more worried about the wings falling off than blacking out...... Incorrect. Having guns or not doesn't have anything to do with the strenght of the wings. 109s from A-E had wing weapons, again one of the K models was designed for wing weapons. The wings were also one single structure, which made it possible to make them very strong. "- Are the stories true, that the 109 had weak wings and would loose them easily? He has never heard of a 109 loosing its wings from his experience or others. The wings could withstand 12 g's and since most pilots could only handle at most 9 g's there was never a problem. He was never worried about loosing a wing in any form of combat." - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler. snip The reference that I was using was Len Deightons book "Fighter" which examines the Battle of Britain. When discussing tactics he asserts that the Bf109 pilots used the tactic of diving away as the Bf109 engine maintained power during the dive unlike that generation of Merlin. However the 109 pilots tended to pull out of their dives in a shallower curve, due to fears over the wings. The spitfire pilots would continue the dive longer and then pull out harder, so overhauling them and pushing home their attack. This is of course a generalisation, and it is not a claim that the Bf109 was a bad aircraft. I do wonder how much of this stemmed from the narrow undercarraige, which while it allowed wing removal while the aircraft sat on its own wheels, also forced a narrow undercarraige. Presumably if the thing toppled over the main area of damage would be the wings. Something like 5% of Bf109s made were reportedly lost in landing accidents. One would assume that a contributing factor was the narrow undercarraige. Something that was certainly looked at in the Fw190, which had one of the widest fighter undercarraiges of the war! In summary the Bf109 could probably take a lot of stress and it is not as though they were falling out of the sky due to wings falling off. However in all likelyhood the pilots did have a concern. It could be one of those cases where perception is everything.... Mark |
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