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#101
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Roy Smith wrote:
In article , john smith wrote: Oops! I guess I got my code squawks backwards. Should have typed 7700 for one-minute, then 7600 for the remainder of the flight. If you want to squawk "Lost Comm", just set 7600 and leave it there. The "7700 for one minute, then 7600" procedure predates me, but I understand that a long time ago (like 15 or 20 years), that was how it was done. No longer the case. ....and I suppose I should stop flying triangular patterns as well. Never could remember if it was clockwise for no receiver or the ohter way.. |
#102
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"Jose" wrote: Let's see if I can learn something, and turn this around. It's =you= flying up the coast, say to Teterboro. You're directly on the other side of Potomac Approach's airspace (whatever shape it happens to be at that time). For argument's sake, you're at 5000 feet in a rental 172RG with a moving map GPS, no radar, no spherics, and no weather imagery available to you (except via descriptions on the radio). You have three and a half hours of gas, and have a clearance through to your destination, which takes you in between building TCU. There are cells to your west and northwest somewhere, maybe forty miles off your route. You're IMC. "N423YL, Potomac is refusing to handle you. What are your intentions?" How do you respond? Good question. From my relaxed position in this comfy chair, my reply is "Well, I still need to get to Teterboro and I don't have any weather gear on board, what do you suggest?" If I was at 5,000, IMC and sweating about imbedded thunderstorms, I might not be so quick with an apt reply. -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
#103
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"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message news:1121723929.5ddf87f013f013628130b3f220dcc8c5@t eranews... Convective activity Was there something in the OP that implied convective activity on all but the HGR..MRB..EMI..THV route? Vector planes around. Put some planes in a holding pattern. What gives you operational priority over them? Vector me around. Put me in a holding pattern until room becomes available. Take you pick. Okay. Then say that when the controller asks your intentions. He can certainly find a path clear of approach and the weather. Don't waste time telling him "unable reroute" right after he tells you a reroute is in your near future. |
#104
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"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message news:1121724013.a978ad36df82d0f25296e0ee95ad9be6@t eranews... I never said that. I said a pilot is under no obligation to accept any change to his clearance which the pilot feels is unsafe. So "unable reroute due to weather" means "unable any reroute that puts me into weather"? |
#105
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"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message news:1121724161.992cd53544baad482b9de4d39a1591dc@t eranews... That could well be the case... in which case pilots starting to say "Unable" and causing controllers to go to their supervisors seeking solutions may well be the solution to this issue. The "higher levels of bureaucracy" referred to are probably outside the FAA. Certainly "The next sector will not accept you -- state intention" is blatantly unacceptable ATC service. It happens. It isn't all that unusual in high density airspace. Let ATC propose the solution to me. Then when asked for your intentions don't respond with something completely unworkable. Let the controller sit on the ground with his supervisor and figure out the solution -- don't leave it up to me while I am flying with a valid clearance on a route I planned around thunderstorms. Right. Put ATC in charge of your flight. |
#106
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Jose wrote:
Let's see if I can learn something, and turn this around. It's =you= flying up the coast, say to Teterboro. You're directly on the other side of Potomac Approach's airspace (whatever shape it happens to be at that time). For argument's sake, you're at 5000 feet in a rental 172RG with a moving map GPS, no radar, no spherics, and no weather imagery available to you (except via descriptions on the radio). You have three and a half hours of gas, and have a clearance through to your destination, which takes you in between building TCU. There are cells to your west and northwest somewhere, maybe forty miles off your route. You're IMC. "N423YL, Potomac is refusing to handle you. What are your intentions?" How do you respond? I'm not quite sure where you intended that I am in your scenario, but I'll assume "the other side of Potomac" from Teterboro means I'm somewhere around Gordonsville VOR. Well, first I would ask myself what the heck I'm doing flying with no weather imagery and embedded thunderstorms all around me. That's not my idea of fun. Second, I would realize that I no longer have clearance through to my destination. Sure, we haven't yet dotted the I's and crossed the T's by agreeing on a new clearance, but it's already been made clear to me that the original plan just isn't happening any more. I need to come up with an alternative plan. There's two basic choices; land, or continue flying. Let's assume I decide I want to try to press on. I need to fly around or over Potomac's airspace. So, I might start by asking some questions: "If I climbed up to 9000, would that help?" Center comes back with, "Sorry, you'd need to get up to 13,000 to stay in Center airspace on that route, can you make that?" (I'm making that up, but it sounds plausable). "Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?" "N423YL, cleared to the Salisbury VOR via direct, maintain 5000, report back on the frequency within 5 minutes". At that point, I'd call up Flight Watch, figure out what the weather is doing over there, and decide if I could continue or not. If things didn't look good weather-wise in that direction, or I just decided the workload was getting to high, I'd just pick a reasonable nearby airport and ask for clearance to it. Once on the ground, I could take my time and make a new plan. A couple of weeks ago, I departed BWI for HPN with ****ty weather reported at my destination, but forecast to clear up about by the time I got there. Along the way, we got a re-route the long way around (i.e. New York was refusing to work us). Called FSS, got a weather update, discovered things still sucked at HPN (1/8 mile in heavy rain), got back to ATC and told them I wanted to land at Allentown. Landed, bought some more fuel, met another pilot who was ferrying a Pitts from New Jersey to California and spent an hour swapping stories with him over lunch. By then, the weather had cleared up a bit, and off we went. |
#107
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"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for
now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?" "Unable Salsbury. I already told you Potomac is refusing to accept you." (I'm making up the fact that Salsbury is served by Potomac approach - you as a pilot have no good way to know what is and what isn't. In fact, Salsbury may only be served by Potomac from 3000 to 7000, but you are at 5000 and the controller is being as helpful and forthcoming now as he was originally). Now what? Jose -- Nothing takes longer than a shortcut. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#108
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Jose wrote:
"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?" "Unable Salsbury. I already told you Potomac is refusing to accept you." (I'm making up the fact that Salsbury is served by Potomac approach - you as a pilot have no good way to know what is and what isn't. In fact, Salsbury may only be served by Potomac from 3000 to 7000, but you are at 5000 and the controller is being as helpful and forthcoming now as he was originally). Now what? I'm not sure where this is going, but how about: "What clearance can you give me which will get me around to the east of Potomac's airspace?" Maybe he'll say something like, "I need to keep you about 5 miles south of Salisbury. Can you navigate direct to XXXXX and I'll try and get you something better after that?" Or maybe he'll say, "Unfortunately, I can't get you anywhere near there. The best I can do in that direction is blah, blah. Can you do that?" You seem to be expecting that he's going to say, "Bzzzt, wrong answer, try again". It doesn't work like that. It doesn't do either you or the controller any good to waste time playing 20 questions. He's just as interested in getting you where you're going as you are. Why is this such a complicated concept? You know what you want to do and you ask for it. If ATC is unable to give it to you, you decide what you want to do instead and ask for that. "Say intentions" should not be something pilots fear hearing. It's nothing more than a jargony way of saying, "What can I do for you?" If you can't come up with a useful answer to "say intentions", you have no business being PIC. |
#109
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A Lieberman wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:59:10 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "A Lieberman" wrote in message . .. Putting me into a heading that weather may compromise my safety. I am basing this on Mikes original post. Denying you your desired route does not require you to fly into any weather. If the weather was behind you like Mike described, and you can't proceed forward, that in my opinion would be an emergency. He couldn't go further on, and had to retrace his steps which would put have put him into bad weather. His words we So now, here I am, in the air with two small kids on board, and being turned back towards what was, a while back at least, some nasty weather. I am making a lot of assumptions, since Mike was the one there and I was not, so I don't know any other alternatives he had. Again, if the weather was behind him and he couldn't proceed further on, being turned back into nasty weather (his words, not mine) can be considered an emergency. Allen I agree. The controller took the chance that he might have to explain his actions later. The pilot can take the chance that he might have to explain HIS actions later (declaring the emergency). Both explainations can be delivered in a nice dry building. |
#110
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Scott Moore wrote:
I agree. The controller took the chance that he might have to explain his actions later. The pilot can take the chance that he might have to explain HIS actions later (declaring the emergency). Both explainations can be delivered in a nice dry building. The pilot was already holding at the IAF for an approach to an airport he could have landed at. I would love to hear the explanation of how that turns into an emergency which forces him to proceed to his original destination along a route he had been told was no longer available to him. Damned inconvenient and annoying, yes. But damned inconvenient and annoying does not an emergency make. |
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