Tow Plane Upsets......

Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes, nor do would
anybody half sane contemplate practicing getting high on the towplane until

approaching release altitude.

The idea is to build the muscle memory of releasing well before the
towpilot
has gotten to maximum up elevator.

We do want to give the towpilot adequate margin.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident is a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at a rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach it.

--Bob K.

At 17:49 26 April 2017, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident
is
a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at
a
rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach
it.

--Bob K.


I'm not a power/ tow pilot so this could be rubbish,but
Could an alarm be fitted at 90%back stick just to remind tug pilots just
how
much up elevator they are using to prevent gradually drifting into a
potential
dangerous situation from which there will be no escape.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 8:50:01 PM UTC+3, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident is a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at a rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach it.

I would like to know what happens if you have a 1000+ ft aerotow rope and cause the glider to "winch launch" behind the tug.

I have a hunch that very very bad things start to happen long before there's any significant upward angle on the rope. Such as the tug virtually stopping mid air and stalling/falling.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 2:45:05 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:49 26 April 2017, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident
is
a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at
a
rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach
it.

--Bob K.


I'm not a power/ tow pilot so this could be rubbish,but
Could an alarm be fitted at 90%back stick just to remind tug pilots just
how
much up elevator they are using to prevent gradually drifting into a
potential
dangerous situation from which there will be no escape.

I doubt most of us need an alarm to know we're pulling that much.
UH

....And the pitch rate is very high in a kiting incident. The tuggie can
be at full back stick and no longer in control quicker than he can
recognize and act.

On 4/26/2017 3:31 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 2:45:05 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:49 26 April 2017, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...
I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident
is
a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at
a
rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach
it.
--Bob K.

I'm not a power/ tow pilot so this could be rubbish,but
Could an alarm be fitted at 90%back stick just to remind tug pilots just
how
much up elevator they are using to prevent gradually drifting into a
potential
dangerous situation from which there will be no escape.
I doubt most of us need an alarm to know we're pulling that much.
UH

--
Dan, 5J

At 21:31 26 April 2017, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 2:45:05 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:49 26 April 2017, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh
wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting
incident
is
a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate
at
a
rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we
teach
it.

--Bob K.


I'm not a power/ tow pilot so this could be rubbish,but
Could an alarm be fitted at 90%back stick just to remind tug pilots
just
how
much up elevator they are using to prevent gradually drifting into a
potential
dangerous situation from which there will be no escape.

I doubt most of us need an alarm to know we're pulling that much.
UH
I am sure you are right,it's just as a glider pilot I rely on feel,and
this
changes with trim,which is why we should always trim for the approach or
take off.

Please do not consider training unless using simulation (only). There have been enough deaths and broken kit already. Chris Rollings in an earlier thread gave a detailed account of well constructed trials performed at height. It is not necessary to repeat these, surely. Please note his conclusions.If your glider has an approved mod. for a nose hook ( if it has only a winch hook) then consider having one fitted. Otherwise know that you could kill the tug pilot if for one brief moment you take your eyes off the tug (and respond immediately to the tug slipping below your field of view or to the strange accelerations which go with this in a "kiting" situation. ).

Originally Posted by Dan Marotta

On 4/25/2017 5:18 AM, Walt Connelly wrote:

snip
....

AND that the release handle
MUST be immediately available to the tow pilot, not down on the floor or
where one must bend and reach and feel for it and it must provide enough
mechanical advantage to accomplish the job.

/snip

It's been over a year but, IIRC, the release levers on the three tugs at
Sundance Aviation (Moriarty) are hinged at the floor with an
approximately 3-foot lever at about the same height as the throttle.
Easy to grab without looking and LOTS of mechanical advantage. Not
commenting at this time about the relative merits or each type of release.

Dan,

Were these 3 foot handles the original design approved by the FAA or were they conversions later? I understand that it is not permissible to simply fabricate a longer handle and have it installed.

Walt

Walt, I can't answer that.

When I started towing at Sundance, both the CallAir and the Pawnee had
long handles. When the Ag Wagon came, it did, too. As I said, it's
been over a year since I looked into any of those cockpits, so I may not
be remembering correctly. I'll try to remember to take a look next time
I go to the airport.

Dan

On 4/27/2017 5:34 AM, Walt Connelly wrote:
Dan Marotta;944164 Wrote:
On 4/25/2017 5:18 AM, Walt Connelly wrote:

snip
....

AND that the release handle
MUST be immediately available to the tow pilot, not down on the floor or
where one must bend and reach and feel for it and it must provide enough
mechanical advantage to accomplish the job.

/snip

It's been over a year but, IIRC, the release levers on the three tugs at

Sundance Aviation (Moriarty) are hinged at the floor with an
approximately 3-foot lever at about the same height as the throttle.
Easy to grab without looking and LOTS of mechanical advantage. Not
commenting at this time about the relative merits or each type of
release.
Dan,

Were these 3 foot handles the original design approved by the FAA or
were they conversions later? I understand that it is not permissible to
simply fabricate a longer handle and have it installed.

Walt





--
Dan, 5J