Analyzing US Competition Flights

Good post Chip.

Guys, sorry to not post clearly. I have no issues with technology being introduced into soaring competition. Quite the contrary, I was really glad to see the twin point and shoot cameras bite the dust. Flight computers are wonderful. The point is not about the increasing technology, but properly managing that technology so that the playing field is even for all. Some want instant changes. I'm glad the RC takes a managed approach and looks at all angles before they make a decision. I've seen way too much "shooting from the hip" and the typical outcome is not satisfactory. Let's let the RC run with the ball and give them the time to do it right.
Craig

On 3/12/2012 7:32 PM, Papa3 wrote:
So, in true Management Consulting fashion, I'd conclude that the
first step is to lay out a strategy for what sailplane racing is
supposed to be about at its essence. Once those principles are fully
fleshed out, then the rules and regulations regarding technology
follow. Not vice versa.

Yes, I think so. When I was an SSA Director in the late '80s, I thought
contest rules should be selected to maximize the growth of the Society.
More or fewer classes? More or less technology? Longer/shorter tasks?
Whatever caused the most growth over the years was the right choice was
my thinking then.

I still think it's the best goal; admittedly, a difficult one to follow,
but worth reflecting on when the conversation starts to get lost in the
details.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Mar 12, 8:32*pm, Papa3 wrote:

So, in true Management Consulting fashion, I'd conclude that the first step is to lay out a strategy for what sailplane racing is supposed to be about at its essence. *Once those principles are fully fleshed out, then the rules and regulations regarding technology follow. *Not vice versa.

P3

Well, good luck with that.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your preferences, there's
another glider competition system with no equipment limitations - OLC
- and pilots seem to like it.

I think a bigger problem for rule makers is convincing OLC pilots to
try sanctioned contests. If they have to remove their beloved gadgets
to participate, that makes it harder.

That's not to say sanctioned contest rules shouldn't restrict
technology - they should, but wisely and only to maintain a level
playing field.

On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:32:32 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

Well, good luck with that.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your preferences, there's
another glider competition system with no equipment limitations - OLC
- and pilots seem to like it.

I think a bigger problem for rule makers is convincing OLC pilots to
try sanctioned contests. If they have to remove their beloved gadgets
to participate, that makes it harder.

That's not to say sanctioned contest rules shouldn't restrict
technology - they should, but wisely and only to maintain a level
playing field.

Bill, you are mixing apples and oranges. OLC, while a contest, is not (and never has been, or ever will be) a RACE.

A contest can have very simple rules ("go as far as you can in a glider"). But if I show up in a Concordia, and you show up in a 1-26, we are not racing. A race, to be fair and interesting, has to have tight rules.

There is plenty of room for both in our sport, as the two activities are not mutually exclusive.

I do fail to see the problem with restrictive rules in racing. If you want to race, read and comply with the rules, then have fun. It's as simple as that. Really.

Kirk
66

On Mar 13, 11:01*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:32:32 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
Well, good luck with that.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your preferences, there's
another glider competition system with no equipment limitations - OLC
- and pilots seem to like it.

I think a bigger problem for rule makers is convincing OLC pilots to
try sanctioned contests. *If they have to remove their beloved gadgets
to participate, that makes it harder.

That's not to say sanctioned contest rules shouldn't restrict
technology - they should, but wisely and only to maintain a level
playing field.

Bill, you are mixing apples and oranges. *OLC, while a contest, is not (and never has been, or ever will be) a RACE.

A contest can have very simple rules ("go as far as you can in a glider").. But if I show up in a Concordia, and you show up in a 1-26, we are not racing. A race, to be fair and interesting, has to have tight rules.

There is plenty of room for both in our sport, as the two activities are not mutually exclusive.

I do fail to see the problem with restrictive rules in racing. If you want to race, read and comply with the rules, then have fun. *It's as simple as that. Really.

Kirk
66

I have a deep respect for the RC and the pilots who fly under their
rules. I will always remain a fan of sanctioned contests. I've made
my point more strongly than I intended so I exit this thread.

On Mar 13, 10:01*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:32:32 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
Well, good luck with that.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your preferences, there's
another glider competition system with no equipment limitations - OLC
- and pilots seem to like it.

I think a bigger problem for rule makers is convincing OLC pilots to
try sanctioned contests. *If they have to remove their beloved gadgets
to participate, that makes it harder.

That's not to say sanctioned contest rules shouldn't restrict
technology - they should, but wisely and only to maintain a level
playing field.

Bill, you are mixing apples and oranges. *OLC, while a contest, is not (and never has been, or ever will be) a RACE.

A contest can have very simple rules ("go as far as you can in a glider").. But if I show up in a Concordia, and you show up in a 1-26, we are not racing. A race, to be fair and interesting, has to have tight rules.

There is plenty of room for both in our sport, as the two activities are not mutually exclusive.

I do fail to see the problem with restrictive rules in racing. If you want to race, read and comply with the rules, then have fun. *It's as simple as that. Really.

Kirk
66

Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

I think the key element of this discussion is the fact that smartphone technology has saturated the cockpits of racing glider pilots (and indeed virtually all relevant glider pilots worldwide). It ABSOLUTELY has saturated the pockets of almost everyone. By the end of 2012, 65% of all mobile phones in the US will be smart (http://www.intomobile.com/2012/03/06...n-dumbphones/). They were in almost ever glider I flew with in the 3 contest I competed in last year and nobody mentioned the rule or had the slightest idea of it. Nobody cared, including Uvalde. I honestly never even imagined this was a problem until roughly 1 month ago when I first began hearing of the supposed, "issue."

Smart phones are, in my opinion, a simple convenience with highly, highly questionable racing value. At this point it is arguably more irritating to ban or restrict (buy a cheap phone for land out purposes) than to simply allow them. It is unenforceable and provides no advantage. So what if pilots can download a Metar or see a non-real time radar image while in flight? This can be accomplished just as easily via calling flight service. What is the advantage of this capability? If it is an advantage and is not to be accessed, why not ban radios? Or at least ban communication with flight service? Hmmm?

In my view, none of the smart phone "available" weather data is real time and therefore is of any tactical advantage. It is equally available to all of us. It seems "far fetched" at minimum to conclude that smart phones are capable of delivering a performance advantage to a racing glider pilot in a racing task.

Is it really worth it to go to the significant lengths necessary to ensure that smart phones are not used in flight (checking cell phone bills, etc)? Below is some relevant language from the most recent "important reading: Other Devices with Artificial Horizon or T&B Features" rules update from the SSA website last month. Can you imagine the kind of protests and accusations that can result from this language? (http://ssa.org/files/member/Restrict...e%20Policy.pdf)

SSA Rules Commitee, Late Feb 2012
3. Cell Phones
Rule 6.11.3 anticipates the presence of cell phones and reflects the expected purpose of these
and similar devices (“smart” phones) as not being used in flight and turned off. The RC reaffirms
its’ position in this respect and recognizes that absolute enforcement of this is not possible,
certainly within the scope of what we expect volunteer officials to do.
If such a device is used for the purposes of a flight display as contemplated in (2) above, it is to
be set in a mode that disables communication with carrier networks (i.e. “airplane mode” or
equivalent). No other applications which could provide prohibited functionality are to be
available in flight.

***Pilots please note that substituting an inexpensive “retrieve phone” in the glider for a more
capable phone used in daily life can be expected to avoid any questions in this area.***

4. Monitoring and compliance
Entrants shall comply with the provisions of the rules and associated policies as a continuing
display of good sportsmanship.
Noncompliance with these rules may be the basis for a determination of ***unsportsmanlike
conduct***, the consequences of which are described within the body of the rules. It will be
permissible for any contest official (or competitor to request of a contest official) to inspect the
glider at any time, consistent with safety, for compliance with these rules.. A refusal to permit a
reasonable request (as determined by contest officials) will be deemed to be justification for
additional investigation.US Competition Rules Committee Policy on Equipment and Devices
other than Instruments Carried in Competition

Allegations by other pilots of violations will be taken seriously and may be anonymous (safety
box) and should be expected to trigger scrutiny of flight records. In the case of flagrant or
repeated allegations, the appropriate action will be decided by the competition committee.
It will be ***permissible for contest officials to request to view records of phone use and internet
access if there appears to be reason for further investigation***.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????
***It is hoped that, with knowledge and care by competitors, that good sportsmanship will be
displayed and the confidence that it is in place will ensure the health and safety of our sport.***
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????

I feel this policy is the wrong path forward (starting with next season at the latest). It has no point. Simply allow them. Then its fair for everyone, and still nobody will use them because it has no value. At least we don't have to go out and buy junk phones per recommendations and have our phone bills inspected (which by the way will provide zero value when it comes to data usage).

http://www.xmwxweather.com/aviation/
http://www.xmwxweather.com/aviation/...-solutions.php
http://www.xmwxweather.com/xmwx-data/

No smartphone is capable of receiving real time "XM Satellite like" radar accuracy." To be useful, and this is highly questionable, detailed aircraft location integral to the NEXRAD radar would be required such as XM Sat Weather provides. Most XM services are not real time. In fact the most up to date weather information available to pilots is airport AWOS (real time reports of temp, wind direction, pressure, sky condition, etc. So we ban smart phones which can intermittently receive out of date weather info but allow radio's which receive real time AWOS and direct communication with flight service for detailed weather updates?

How many people have bothered calling flight service in contests? Have you? Anyone? Please reply. Did it help you win a contest day? More power to you. I am just wondering. Mobile phone data would give you similar but arguable far less usable information on task.

I will ask again, can anyone provide a detailed scenario (be prepared to defend your scenario) where smart phones with data connectivity via mobile networks are going to provide a racing glider pilot a demonstrable advantage over pilots who do not have or use a smart phone? Anybody?

What is the point of this ban on using smart phones (separate from the feeble AH capability)?

Is it worth having new contest pilots being told to go to Walmart and buy another phone? I vote A VERY BIG, no.

It's a little silly really...I hope we can move thru this sooner than later..

Sean

Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Sorry, Brad, I totally disagree. A "race" implies competition between people on the same task, whatever that task is. OLC doesn't have a "task"!

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

OLC fits neither of these.

Why the need to mix the two? OLC is a valid form of competition, and is a lot of fun - it just isn't a race where individuals compete against each other on the same field of play. A race against fellow pilots? YGBSM! I'm in Illinois scratching around in 1 knot up to 2000', and you are running around in NM at 17999' under a cloud street? Yeah right. You get a better OLC score, that's great! But we didn't race!

I want my racing to have rules. If you don't like rules - then you probably won't like racing. I like to see how I do against other pilots on solving a problem we are all exposed to at the same time - not comparing the soaring weather where I live to the soaring weather where someone else lives.

Kirk
66

On Mar 13, 5:13*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Sorry, Brad, I totally disagree. *A "race" implies competition between people on the same task, whatever that task is. OLC doesn't have a "task"!

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

OLC fits neither of these.

Why the need to mix the two? *OLC is a valid form of competition, and is a lot of fun - it just isn't a race where individuals compete against each other on the same field of play. *A race against fellow pilots? YGBSM! I'm in Illinois scratching around in 1 knot up to 2000', and you are running around in NM at 17999' under a cloud street? *Yeah right. *You get a better OLC score, that's great! But we didn't race!

I want my racing to have rules. *If you don't like rules - then you probably won't like racing. I like to see how I do against other pilots on solving a problem we are all exposed to at the same time - not comparing the soaring weather where I live to the soaring weather where someone else lives..

Kirk
66

You are not getting it Kirk. Our kinder and gentler PC society won't
have their precious children divided into winners and losers. Look at
the bedrooms of all those Generation XYZ babies with their
certificates of participation proudly displayed. Rules? Who needs
rules if we just all strive to get along and let those mimosas do what
it takes not to have another temper tantrum. Kirk, you and I are just
too damned old to understand that.
Herb, J7

On Mar 13, 3:56*pm, Herbert kilian wrote:
On Mar 13, 5:13*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:









Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Sorry, Brad, I totally disagree. *A "race" implies competition between people on the same task, whatever that task is. OLC doesn't have a "task"!

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

OLC fits neither of these.

Why the need to mix the two? *OLC is a valid form of competition, and is a lot of fun - it just isn't a race where individuals compete against each other on the same field of play. *A race against fellow pilots? YGBSM! I'm in Illinois scratching around in 1 knot up to 2000', and you are running around in NM at 17999' under a cloud street? *Yeah right. *You get a better OLC score, that's great! But we didn't race!

I want my racing to have rules. *If you don't like rules - then you probably won't like racing. I like to see how I do against other pilots on solving a problem we are all exposed to at the same time - not comparing the soaring weather where I live to the soaring weather where someone else lives.

Kirk
66

You are not getting it Kirk. *Our kinder and gentler PC society won't
have their precious children divided into winners and losers. *Look at
the bedrooms of all those Generation XYZ babies with their
certificates of participation proudly displayed. *Rules? Who needs
rules if we just all strive to get along and let those mimosas do what
it takes not to have another temper tantrum. *Kirk, you and I are just
too damned old to understand that.
Herb, J7

Hey Herb, I'm old enough to have grandkids and I sure as hell am not a
PC hack, so understand that racing is for those who wanna race, and
OLC is for those who wanna race.
You guys have hijacked the term "race" like the gays have hijacked the
word "gay".

Herb come on up to my neck of the woods and I'll kick your ass where I
fly.

Brad
(almost forgot to add respectfully)