Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

FAA is finding large numbers of misconfigured ADS-B Out installations.
Have you run the compliance test to check for problems?

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/.../pilot/pe_adsb


On 02/20/2017 03:37 PM, Sarah wrote:
Just for the record, I did look up my N number on FlightAware. Turns out I flew a straight out flight KLAF - KAZO, 233 KM at 257 KPH ! Not bad! Must be a record!

Just kidding - someone have misregistered their N-number.

I've found FlightAware pretty unreliable for VFR flights, even close to a metro class B.



On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 11:08:38 PM UTC-6, kinsell wrote:
On 02/18/2017 10:44 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:30:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they
need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates.

1) ADS-B ground stations logging data would need to receive ADS-B down
to near ground level to get close to the crash site. A glider can travel
a long distance from the altitudes mentioned as ground-station receive
floor in this thread.

I think people don't appreciate how extensive the FlightAware network
really is. I've tracked traffic down to landing, and then taxiing back
to their hangar from 30 miles away. Would be interesting if Sarah went
to flightaware.com, put in her N number, and saw what data the system
has on her flights.

The system even has some capability of tracking Mode S targets with
triangulation, although with reduced accuracy and coverage.



2) FLARM can assist in SAR (and has done a number of times). This requires
other gliders flying in FLARM-range of the crash, otherwise the search
area will not be narrowed to a helpful size. And the FLARM log files need
to be promptly recovered from gliders in the area and forwarded to FLARM
for analysis.

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 1:40:50 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
You disagree with what exactly? Show us where you find ADS-B coverage via Flightaware of glider flights, especially in some of the poor FAA ADS-B coverage areas of say the great basin.

My main point is with alternate products available, thinking about ADS-B from a SAR perspective is a lot less important/just not that interesting.

Everything else is really dependent on what scenario you are trying to cover and where you fly. Without that thinking it's a near useless question to ask. Can ADS-B help? Sure it might. And sure it might not. The question needs to be where/how/when could it help and to answer that start looking at the coverage (and access to that data) where you fly.

With your comment "Flightaware tracking for flights without an IFR flight plan is next to useless" That is not the case in the eastern USA. There are many non-gov sources that feed flightaware quite well.
Sure DeLorme or SPOT are the obvious choices emergencies but if you have ADS-B out, Flightaware can provide your last position information. It is not great but it is not useless.

CAP uses other sources as well.....

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...-save-in-month

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 5:33:42 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 1:40:50 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
You disagree with what exactly? Show us where you find ADS-B coverage via Flightaware of glider flights, especially in some of the poor FAA ADS-B coverage areas of say the great basin.

My main point is with alternate products available, thinking about ADS-B from a SAR perspective is a lot less important/just not that interesting.

Everything else is really dependent on what scenario you are trying to cover and where you fly. Without that thinking it's a near useless question to ask. Can ADS-B help? Sure it might. And sure it might not. The question needs to be where/how/when could it help and to answer that start looking at the coverage (and access to that data) where you fly.

With your comment "Flightaware tracking for flights without an IFR flight plan is next to useless" That is not the case in the eastern USA. There are many non-gov sources that feed flightaware quite well.
Sure DeLorme or SPOT are the obvious choices emergencies but if you have ADS-B out, Flightaware can provide your last position information. It is not great but it is not useless.

I have no dispute that ADS-B *might* provide last position information. But there are are scenarios where it *will* be useless, where there is poor coverage from FAA or other sources. And those locations are ones of the probably more challenging SAR areas to start with. So again, folks need to stop asking general "might it help" questions and look at their particular locations where they fly and scenarios they care about (e.g. useful for loss/crash vs. landout).

Links to flight traces of ADS-B glider flights please.... (VFR only, not flight plan, and for the ones that do show up is were those flights on flight following?). My impression of Flightaware is VFR flight reporting is it is very poor. That is not wether there are trackers out there, there system is just not reporting most ofd that. In areas like the Great Basin/Sierras I would get an InReach (not Spot). Sure I'd also make sure that the club/FBO/friends knew the glider was say 1090ES Out equipped. Just like you want folks who care about you today to know if the glider is/is not transponder equipped (and Mode C or S) and know to pass that info onto SAR. You should have all that written down in a document that says who to call when and has all that extra information written down.

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 6:23:15 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 5:33:42 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 1:40:50 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
You disagree with what exactly? Show us where you find ADS-B coverage via Flightaware of glider flights, especially in some of the poor FAA ADS-B coverage areas of say the great basin.

My main point is with alternate products available, thinking about ADS-B from a SAR perspective is a lot less important/just not that interesting.

Everything else is really dependent on what scenario you are trying to cover and where you fly. Without that thinking it's a near useless question to ask. Can ADS-B help? Sure it might. And sure it might not. The question needs to be where/how/when could it help and to answer that start looking at the coverage (and access to that data) where you fly.

With your comment "Flightaware tracking for flights without an IFR flight plan is next to useless" That is not the case in the eastern USA. There are many non-gov sources that feed flightaware quite well.
Sure DeLorme or SPOT are the obvious choices emergencies but if you have ADS-B out, Flightaware can provide your last position information. It is not great but it is not useless.

I have no dispute that ADS-B *might* provide last position information. But there are are scenarios where it *will* be useless, where there is poor coverage from FAA or other sources. And those locations are ones of the probably more challenging SAR areas to start with. So again, folks need to stop asking general "might it help" questions and look at their particular locations where they fly and scenarios they care about (e.g. useful for loss/crash vs. landout).

Links to flight traces of ADS-B glider flights please.... (VFR only, not flight plan, and for the ones that do show up is were those flights on flight following?). My impression of Flightaware is VFR flight reporting is it is very poor. That is not wether there are trackers out there, there system is just not reporting most ofd that. In areas like the Great Basin/Sierras I would get an InReach (not Spot). Sure I'd also make sure that the club/FBO/friends knew the glider was say 1090ES Out equipped. Just like you want folks who care about you today to know if the glider is/is not transponder equipped (and Mode C or S) and know to pass that info onto SAR. You should have all that written down in a document that says who to call when and has all that extra information written down.

If the question you are trying to resolve is should you buy ADS-B Out or a satellite tracker for the purpose of SAR, get a satellite tracker - preferably an InReach - unless you like "maybe, sometime" as your SAR method. The possibility that someone can track you most places via ADS-B breadcrumbs seems a bit too much like a theoretical exercise. The lower you get, the less likely you will be picked up by a ground station, and gliders can go quite far from low altitudes before landing. Satellites can see you on the ground and a satellite messenger can send a "come get me" message - to crew or SAR depending on your need.

Andy Blackburn
9B

That's not quite my question -- glider has Spot tracker -- it's more a question of whether, in addition to ADS-B's intended traffic awareness/avoidance function and the possible cockpit display of TIS-B and FIS-B, there is any significant added value in terms of Search and Rescue. Looking at whether that "maybe, sometimes" tips the scale in favor of the additional investment to equip. Obviously, not a reason on its own to equip.

Looking at the map Sarah pointed to in an earlier post, the FAA indicates that coverage even at 500' AGL is nearly continuous in the area NW of NYC where I typically fly. Looking at the area around Marfa, TX, where I sometimes fly, and where one would really like to be found if needed, there appears to be almost no coverage, even at 5000'. So, as has been pointed out, the answer largely hinges on where you are flying.

In short, I think the answer is "couldn't hurt."

How does satellite based ADS-B monitoring like Aireon's space-based global surveillance system fit into the picture?

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 10:16:42 PM UTC-8, Surge wrote:
How does satellite based ADS-B monitoring like Aireon's space-based global surveillance system fit into the picture?

If that (A) ever actually happens and (B) ever monitor flights over the continental USA and (C) ever want to sell that data (to the FAA or commercially) then it might be interesting. But nothing is perfect, and down low amongst terrain/mountains you may get some obscuration (just lik with Spot or InReach... but hopefully better given the transmit power). An ADS-B Out antenna mounted under a Carbon Fiber glider might not work so well. Their target platform is an airliner with Diversity/top mounted 1090ES out antenna. Their business model now is selling high-value transoceanic data services to ATC providers.

Anybody mentioned a Garmin InReach is damn good value for money... :-)

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 1:40:50 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
You disagree with what exactly? Show us where you find ADS-B coverage via Flightaware of glider flights, especially in some of the poor FAA ADS-B coverage areas of say the great basin.

My main point is with alternate products available, thinking about ADS-B from a SAR perspective is a lot less important/just not that interesting.

Everything else is really dependent on what scenario you are trying to cover and where you fly. Without that thinking it's a near useless question to ask. Can ADS-B help? Sure it might. And sure it might not. The question needs to be where/how/when could it help and to answer that start looking at the coverage (and access to that data) where you fly.

One BIG reason that you don't see many glider flights on FlightAware is that there are currently almost no ADS-B OUT equipped gliders flying in the US.. The fleet of Dynon Skyview equipped Phoenix Motorgliders probably make up the bulk of these ADS-B equipped gliders.

In SW Florida, I can consistently see my flight traces on FlightAware down to 500' AGL. Granted, out west there is less coverage. If you fly out there, you can get a FREE ADS-B receiver from FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/adsb/request) to enhance their coverage. All you need is an internet connection. Right now they are specifically targeting Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakota, and west Texas for this offer.

In those areas where FlightAware has sufficient coverage, and they won't provide you a free receiver, you can make your own for ~$200, and they will give you a free Enterprise account for providing data to their network.

Ultimately, we are going to see global ADS-B coverage with satellite based receivers. The satellites are starting to be launched. If the FAA signs up for this, we could see national coverage down to ground level.

Nobody is arguing that today it's not a good idea to invest in SPOT or DeLorme devices. The point is that ADS-B is the future and that the investment in ADS-B OUT is going to be a smart move in the long run.

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 10:35:06 PM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 1:40:50 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
You disagree with what exactly? Show us where you find ADS-B coverage via Flightaware of glider flights, especially in some of the poor FAA ADS-B coverage areas of say the great basin.

My main point is with alternate products available, thinking about ADS-B from a SAR perspective is a lot less important/just not that interesting.

Everything else is really dependent on what scenario you are trying to cover and where you fly. Without that thinking it's a near useless question to ask. Can ADS-B help? Sure it might. And sure it might not. The question needs to be where/how/when could it help and to answer that start looking at the coverage (and access to that data) where you fly.

One BIG reason that you don't see many glider flights on FlightAware is that there are currently almost no ADS-B OUT equipped gliders flying in the US. The fleet of Dynon Skyview equipped Phoenix Motorgliders probably make up the bulk of these ADS-B equipped gliders.

In SW Florida, I can consistently see my flight traces on FlightAware down to 500' AGL. Granted, out west there is less coverage. If you fly out there, you can get a FREE ADS-B receiver from FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/adsb/request) to enhance their coverage. All you need is an internet connection. Right now they are specifically targeting Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakota, and west Texas for this offer.

In those areas where FlightAware has sufficient coverage, and they won't provide you a free receiver, you can make your own for ~$200, and they will give you a free Enterprise account for providing data to their network.

Ultimately, we are going to see global ADS-B coverage with satellite based receivers. The satellites are starting to be launched. If the FAA signs up for this, we could see national coverage down to ground level.

Nobody is arguing that today it's not a good idea to invest in SPOT or DeLorme devices. The point is that ADS-B is the future and that the investment in ADS-B OUT is going to be a smart move in the long run.

Mike - I don't think there is any immediate plan to support 2-way text or email messaging via ADS-B. Did I miss an announcement? I kind of like the idea that I can call for help, rather than waiting for somebody to figure it out from ADS-B breadcrumbs...or not..assuming your breadcrumbs were received...and/or assuming FAA supports satellite-based ADS-B.

Not that a cheap GPS source to go with your Trig isn't a good idea at some point in the future when it is truly cheap and legal to do..it's just a different use case and rationale really.