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In a piaggio avanti!
I recently found myself sitting behind the controls
in one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ae...180_Avanti.jpg Too bad we were sitting on the tarmac, not moving. Heh! I asked the captain, "I bet you typically cruise this thing about 32K feet?" He smiled and said, "No, try 43K ft." Nice plane, pusher prop, fast as hell! We hung out for a bit in the plush cabin and the co-captain told me stories about Caribbean runways with broken asphalt, and Mexican airports where they'll steal your wheels. I tried, but they would't let me take it once around the block. (as if I could) --- Mark |
#2
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In a piaggio avanti!
Mark wrote
Too bad we were sitting on the tarmac, not moving. Heh! I asked the captain,.... the co-captain ..... I guess that it is time for my annual "who's who in the cockpit" post. Manuel W. wrote: On airliners, you often hear that the F/O actually acts as PIC (I suppose this is for training purposes). Just a quick (and maybe stupid) question: where does this "F/O acting as PIC" pilot sit in the cockpit? In the left seat, because he's acting as PIC, or still in the right seat, because he's a F/O? Maybe modern cockpits are symmetric, so it wouldn't make any difference where you are seated... Dave S wrote What you are describing is "Pilot Flying" and "Pilot Not Flying" when it comes to who is doing what. The PIC is still the PIC, the F/O is still the F/O. They are both required to be there, but one flies the plane, the other does all the other stuff (or however their employer has designated that CRM/resource management will occur). PIC sits on the left (generally) and F/O sits on the right (generally). They dont swap seats for different legs. You guys have touched on one of my pet peeves in aviation. Pilots not knowing who or what they are. :-) At the fundamental level, there is the "PILOT" as defined in my "Webster's" as being "the person who operates an aircraft or spacecraft" and the "COPILOT" as being "one who assists the pilot in operating an aircraft". Actually, in the case of more than one pilot, perhaps they both should be "CO-PILOTS" since the prefix "co" simply means together. Then came the FAA (or rather its predessor the CAA) who insisted that somebody (preferrably one of the pilots) really be in charge of the whole operation. Thus the "PILOT-IN-COMMAND" concept came about. If the pilots were equally qualified, the FAA required that the Air Carrier designate one of them as PILOT-IN-COMMAND (PIC). This left "SECOND-IN-COMMAND" (SIC) for the other pilot. Note....that to this point, PILOT and CO-PILOT go together and PIC and SIC share context. The CFR for multi-pilot aircraft use the terms PIC and SIC.....not Pilot and Co-pilot. Then aircarriers (actually my old carrier PanAm) started flying large flying boats into foreign ports and in an attempt to gain the same level of respect for the flightcrews that the crews of visiting ships received, the concept of flightcrew officers with rank and title was born. Following the nautical tradition, the PICs were given the rank and title of "CAPTAIN", but differing somewhat from shipboard terminology, instead of "First Mate" for the second ranking officer, he was given the rank and title of "FIRST OFFICER". The Flight Engineer became the "FLIGHT ENGINEERING OFFICER" much the same as a ship's Engineering Officer. When aircarriers started employing pilots to train and serve as Flight Engineers, even though they held a Flight Engineer Certificate, they were in many cases given the rank and title of "SECOND OFFICER". In addition to these and the "RADIO OFFICER", it was not uncommon on those early flying boats to have a Fifth or Sixth Officer. What purpose did "rank and title" serve? First....rank served to specify the level of responsibility and authority of ones position within the flightcrew, and second, the title served as a means of showing respect when addressing one of the aircraft's officers. After all...in proper society, we are all entitled to the title Mr./Mrs./Miss if no other title has been bestowed upon us. One does not bestow a title upon himself nor use his title when refering to himself. Being PIC of an aircraft does not automatically confer the rank and title of "CAPTAIN". At PanAm, all of our copilots held ATPs and Type Ratings for the aircraft that they flew and in the eyes of the FAA, they were fully qualified to fly as PICs outside of an aircarrier enviroment, but the rank and title of "CAPTAIN" was not bestowed until they had completed the FAA required Initial Operating Experience (IOE) for PICs and an Initial Command Check. So now, we have three sets of words used to describe the two people up front in an airplane. Pilot/Copilot, PIC/SIC, and Captain/First Officer. These word pairs should be used in the same context. I am constantly amused by those who write " I was Captain of flight XXX and my copilot was....... It seems that once a pilot is told that he is "A Captain", he will never again refer to himself as mearly a pilot, but First Officer Smith is still just a copilot. Rank and titles should not be used as stand-alone nouns but rather as intended, as a title prefaced before a persons proper name. Yes, I know that many of you work, or have worked for companies in whose manuals the terms "Captain" and "First Officer" are used to describe positions rather than rank and title. My own company, PanAm did that too, but I also knew the Director of Flight Operations who prepared the manual and I fully understood that he was no student of the English language and whose ego would never again allow himself to be refered to as a "lowly" pilot. How about all those ads in aviation magazines that offer "Airline First Officer Training"? Don't they really mean co-pilot training? Notice that the more professional of the schools do not use this terminology. How many of you pilots renew your FAA Medical Certificate with one of your local doctors? I don't. I get mine from a physician.... more specifically from an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). I honor his education, training, and position in life with the title "Doctor". "Doctor" is an academic title , not a position. Some will say, "Well, what about a ship's "captain"? Actually, a merchant ship has a "MASTER" with the rank and title of "Captain". A U.S. Naval ship has a "COMMANDING OFFICER", again with the title of "Captain" regardless of his actual Naval rank. Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language skills in order to fly airplanes or pretend to be a pilot on the internet. Bob Moore |
#3
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In a piaggio avanti!
On Apr 23, 8:29*am, Bob Moore wrote:
Mark wrote Too bad we were sitting on the tarmac, not moving. Heh! *I asked the captain,.... the co-captain ..... I guess that it is time for my annual "who's who in the cockpit" post. * Manuel W. wrote: On airliners, you often hear that the F/O actually acts as PIC (I suppose this is for training purposes). Just a quick (and maybe stupid) question: where does this "F/O acting as PIC" pilot sit in the cockpit? In the left seat, because he's acting as PIC, or still in the right seat, because he's a F/O? Maybe modern cockpits are symmetric, so it wouldn't make any difference where you are seated... Dave S *wrote What you are describing is "Pilot Flying" and "Pilot Not Flying" when it comes to who is doing what. The PIC is still the PIC, the F/O is still the F/O. They are both required to be there, but one flies the plane, the other does all the other stuff (or however their employer has designated that CRM/resource management will occur). PIC sits on the left (generally) and F/O sits on the right (generally). They dont swap seats for different legs. You guys have touched on one of my pet peeves in aviation. *Pilots not knowing who or what they are. *:-) At the fundamental level, there is the "PILOT" as defined in my "Webster's" as being "the person who operates an aircraft or spacecraft" and the "COPILOT" as being "one who assists the pilot in operating an aircraft". *Actually, in the case of more than one pilot, perhaps they both should be "CO-PILOTS" since the prefix "co" simply means together. Then came the FAA (or rather its predessor the CAA) who insisted that somebody (preferrably one of the pilots) really be in charge of the whole operation. *Thus the "PILOT-IN-COMMAND" concept came about. *If the pilots were equally qualified, the FAA required that the Air Carrier designate one of them as PILOT-IN-COMMAND (PIC). *This left "SECOND-IN-COMMAND" (SIC) for the other pilot. Note....that to this point, PILOT and CO-PILOT go together and PIC and SIC share context. *The CFR for multi-pilot aircraft use the terms PIC and SIC.....not Pilot and Co-pilot. Then aircarriers (actually my old carrier PanAm) started flying large flying boats into foreign ports and in an attempt to gain the same level of respect for the flightcrews that the crews of visiting ships received, the concept of flightcrew officers with rank and title was born. *Following the nautical tradition, the PICs were given the rank and title of "CAPTAIN", but differing somewhat from shipboard terminology, instead of "First Mate" for the second ranking officer, he was given the rank and title of "FIRST OFFICER". *The Flight Engineer became the "FLIGHT ENGINEERING OFFICER" much the same as a ship's Engineering Officer. When aircarriers started employing pilots to train and serve as Flight Engineers, even though they held a Flight Engineer Certificate, they were in many cases given the rank and title of "SECOND OFFICER". *In addition to these and the "RADIO OFFICER", it was not uncommon on those early flying boats to have a Fifth or Sixth Officer. What purpose did "rank and title" serve? *First....rank served to specify the level of responsibility and authority of ones position within the flightcrew, and second, the title served as a means of showing respect when addressing one of the aircraft's officers. After all...in proper society, we are all entitled to the title Mr./Mrs./Miss if no other title has been bestowed upon us. *One does not bestow a title upon himself nor use his title when refering to himself. *Being PIC of an aircraft does not automatically confer the rank and title of "CAPTAIN". *At PanAm, all of our copilots held ATPs and Type Ratings for the aircraft that they flew and in the eyes of the FAA, they were fully qualified to fly as PICs outside of an aircarrier enviroment, but the rank and title of "CAPTAIN" was not bestowed until they had completed the FAA required Initial Operating Experience (IOE) for PICs and an Initial Command Check. So now, we have three sets of words used to describe the two people up front in an airplane. *Pilot/Copilot, PIC/SIC, and Captain/First Officer. *These word pairs should be used in the same context. *I am constantly amused by those who write " I was Captain of flight XXX and my copilot was....... *It seems that once a pilot is told that he is "A Captain", he will never again refer to himself as mearly a pilot, but First Officer Smith is still just a copilot. Rank and titles should not be used as stand-alone nouns but rather as intended, as a title prefaced before a persons proper name. Yes, I know that many of you work, or have worked for companies in whose manuals the terms "Captain" and "First Officer" are used to describe positions rather than rank and title. *My own company, PanAm did that too, but I also knew the Director of Flight Operations who prepared the manual and I fully understood that he was no student of the English language and whose ego would never again allow himself to be refered to as a "lowly" pilot. *How about all those ads in aviation magazines that offer "Airline First Officer Training"? Don't they really mean co-pilot training? *Notice that the more professional of the schools do not use this terminology. How many of you pilots renew your FAA Medical Certificate with one of your local doctors? *I don't. *I get mine from a physician.... more specifically from an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). *I honor his education, training, and position in life with the title "Doctor". * "Doctor" is an academic title , not a position. Some will say, "Well, what about a ship's "captain"? *Actually, a merchant ship has a "MASTER" with the rank and title of "Captain". *A U.S. Naval ship has a "COMMANDING OFFICER", again with the title of "Captain" regardless of his actual Naval rank. Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language skills in order to fly airplanes or pretend to be a pilot on the internet. Bob Moore Well, I'd like to think my language skills are in order, and I see no point in telling tales on the internet, it accomplishes nothing. I fly a little when I can. But thanks for your edification surrounding proper nomenclature surrounding rank. To conform to protocol let me be more specific in describing who was present with me in that Piaggio Avanti. There was the Fat Guy with greying hair, about 50, and the skinny kid with blond hair about 30. Both had white shirts and blue jackets hung on a seat. Or to suit you further, it was FG/GH and SK/BH. --- Mark |
#4
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In a piaggio avanti!
On 23 Apr 2010 12:29:19 GMT, Bob Moore wrote:
Ah well....no one ever said that Mark had to be proficient in language skills in order to fly airplanes or pretend to be a pilot on the internet. Ain't it the truth. -- A fireside chat not with Ari! http://tr.im/holj Motto: Live To Spooge It! |
#5
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In a piaggio avanti!
On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 03:54:13 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:
I recently found myself sitting behind the controls in one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ae...180_Avanti.jpg Too bad we were sitting on the tarmac, not moving. Then come on down to APF and I'll get you a proper ride, Mark(ie). Heh! I asked the captain, *lol* As in Captain Hook? Nice plane, pusher prop, fast as hell! One prop? My God, Mark(ie) did the other one fall off? Did you miss the canard on that duck? We hung out for a bit in the plush cabin and the co-captain told me stories about Caribbean runways with broken asphalt, and Mexican airports where they'll steal your wheels. And tales of yore a Arrggh Arrgh. /lol/ I tried, but they would't let me take it once around the block. (as if I could) I am certain they thought you were a cutesy. Or "Can't wait to shoot the security assclown that let this guy climb into our bird". -- http://tr.im/1fa6 |
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