IAP without inbound course?

Greg Esres wrote:
The arc itself is an intermediate segment.

Given that arcs begin with an INITIAL Approach Fix, that would make
them initial segments.

I think what Bob was trying to say is that the ARC final approach
segment criteria are identical to ARC intermediate segment criteria;
thus, there isn't really any ARC final approach segment criteria.

The initial, intermediate, and final all are the same width
2-4-centerline-4-2. The required obstacle clearance (ROC) for the
initial is 1,000 feet, for the intermediate and final it is 500 feet.
500 feet is TERPS standard intermediate segment ROC.

Standard ROC for "real" final approach segments is either 250, 300, or 350.

Jose wrote:

I suggested the "drill instructor" was being silly if he was looking
for the answer to be "that one DME ARC IAP."


I disagree.

To bust somebody on a question like that would have been more than
silly. However, =asking= the question, as a "bonus question", is a way
of examining people's unstated assumptions about flight and the
environment in which we aviate. This is always a good thing.

Jose
I agree, asking the question is appropriate and thought-provoking. But,
if the "drill instructor" was thinking in terms of DME ARC IAPs, then
that was silly. But, as I said at the beginning, he may have been
thinking of ASR and PAR.

In any case, based on the information available, there is a tad of
speculation going on here.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:l5I2g.173862$bm6.22562@fed1read04...
Greg Esres wrote:
The arc itself is an intermediate segment.

Given that arcs begin with an INITIAL Approach Fix, that would make
them initial segments.

I think what Bob was trying to say is that the ARC final approach segment
criteria are identical to ARC intermediate segment criteria; thus, there
isn't really any ARC final approach segment criteria.

The initial, intermediate, and final all are the same width
2-4-centerline-4-2. The required obstacle clearance (ROC) for the initial
is 1,000 feet, for the intermediate and final it is 500 feet. 500 feet is
TERPS standard intermediate segment ROC.

Standard ROC for "real" final approach segments is either 250, 300, or
350.

RoD?

Matt Barrow wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:l5I2g.173862$bm6.22562@fed1read04...

Greg Esres wrote:

The arc itself is an intermediate segment.

Given that arcs begin with an INITIAL Approach Fix, that would make
them initial segments.

I think what Bob was trying to say is that the ARC final approach segment
criteria are identical to ARC intermediate segment criteria; thus, there
isn't really any ARC final approach segment criteria.

The initial, intermediate, and final all are the same width
2-4-centerline-4-2. The required obstacle clearance (ROC) for the initial
is 1,000 feet, for the intermediate and final it is 500 feet. 500 feet is
TERPS standard intermediate segment ROC.

Standard ROC for "real" final approach segments is either 250, 300, or
350.


RoD?


Required obstacle clearance as stated in the next to last paragraph.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:N0L2g.173867$bm6.165675@fed1read04...
Matt Barrow wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:l5I2g.173862$bm6.22562@fed1read04...

Greg Esres wrote:

The arc itself is an intermediate segment.

Given that arcs begin with an INITIAL Approach Fix, that would make
them initial segments.

I think what Bob was trying to say is that the ARC final approach segment
criteria are identical to ARC intermediate segment criteria; thus, there
isn't really any ARC final approach segment criteria.

The initial, intermediate, and final all are the same width
2-4-centerline-4-2. The required obstacle clearance (ROC) for the
initial is 1,000 feet, for the intermediate and final it is 500 feet. 500
feet is TERPS standard intermediate segment ROC.

Standard ROC for "real" final approach segments is either 250, 300, or
350.


RoD?
Required obstacle clearance as stated in the next to last paragraph.

Toooooo fast!

But, if the "drill instructor" was thinking in terms of DME ARC IAPs, then that was silly.

Not at all. I bet most people don't know the parameters of a DME arc,
and most have never flown them, even in practice.

"They're not all like that" is a very important thing to learn, and
examples pop up in the oddest places. My wish is that they never pop up
at inopportune times.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
But, if the "drill instructor" was thinking in terms of DME ARC IAPs,
then that was silly.


Not at all. I bet most people don't know the parameters of a DME arc,
and most have never flown them, even in practice.

"They're not all like that" is a very important thing to learn, and
examples pop up in the oddest places. My wish is that they never pop up
at inopportune times.

Jose
How? There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the world).
If, however, you mean most pilots don't know how to fly DME ARC initial
approach segments, then their training is seriously lacking.

There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the world). If, however, you mean most pilots don't know how to fly DME ARC initial approach segments, then their training is seriously lacking.

Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I asked here some
time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training is not
"seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much (DME was not in
the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept up, but one
cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up with, and some of
those things are obscure "gotchas".

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The secret of flying a DME arc is the initial heading you
turn to when at the first fix and then turning to a heading
every 10 degrees of radial change, probably a 20 degree turn
each ten degrees on the arc. You can even stay pretty close
without a DME or GPS by guessing at a wind correction angle.
You can try using VOR cross bearings to set the first turn
fix and then try the first turn 90 degrees from the radial,
with about 5 degrees inside the turn. Then adjust the
heading as you cross each 10 degree radial. When you get to
the inbound course, less 10 degrees, turn to intercept.
Have somebody use a handheld GPS to monitor your distance,
but don't "fly" the GPS, this is a VFR dead reckoning
experiment.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jose" wrote in message
news | There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the
world). If, however, you mean most pilots don't know how to
fly DME ARC initial approach segments, then their training
is seriously lacking.
|
| Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I
asked here some
| time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training
is not
| "seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much
(DME was not in
| the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept
up, but one
| cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up
with, and some of
| those things are obscure "gotchas".
|
| Jose
| --
| The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The secret of flying a DME arc is...

Yes, I know. But I wasn't taught that, I found out later on my own.
This is probably true of many older IFR pilots.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.